Office Moves, Part 3: The IT Playbook

About Georg Dauterman:

Georg believes in the fusion of technology and creativity. With a background in both fields, he started his career in IT departments of publishing and advertising agencies, realizing the critical need for tech aligned with business goals. Joining Valiant in 2004, Georg’s expertise and passion for efficiency brought industry recognition. He holds a history degree from Queens College and serves on Datto’s Global Partner Advisory Board. Beyond his leadership role, Georg enjoys exploring culinary skills, fitness, and outdoor adventures with his family.

About Megan Quick:

Megan is a member of the Valiant Marketing & Sales team, assisting in demonstrating the value of our services and ensuring positive experiences for prospective clients. When not working with technology, she is a theater production manager and performer, producing her own comedy shows, and is an avid writer. Megan has a B.A. in Theater from Sewanee: The University of The South.

What you’ll learn about in this episode:

• Why office moves are one of the most underestimated operational projects a company can take on, and how complexity escalates fast once you start uncovering dependencies.
• A real world example of a client who needed a security guard for a week and a half because an electronic lock wasn't compatible with the building's fire safety system, showing how often unexpected issues arise.
• Why a dedicated move project manager, not your office manager or an early-career employee, is the highest leverage investment you can make, and what a well run move looks like in practice.
• The cost of nebulous responsibility, where every task needs a clear owner with authority to decide, spend, and escalate without leadership bottlenecks.
• Why poor timing around holidays or busy periods is a common and expensive mistake, and why six months lead time should be the baseline.
• Why you shouldn't wait until a move to fix IT issues, since weak Wi-Fi or infrastructure problems will carry over and get worse during the transition.
• How to define a successful move before starting, where employees can walk in on day one, and work without friction.
• The five steps to prepare for a move, including engaging trusted partners early, assigning a move lead, mapping vendors, walking the full project as a team, and integrating the move into regular leadership cadence.

Transcript:

Megan Quick:
Hello and welcome back to the Creative Stack, a show about the intersection of creativity and information technology. I am your host, Megan Quick. Today, this is a really exciting episode because we're actually going to be completing our three-part series on office moves. And we have someone who has seen hundreds, perhaps thousands of office moves in this city. And sorry, George, that was hyperbole.

Georg Dauterman:
Ha ha Thousands is a lot. It's okay. No, it's okay.

Megan Quick:
And y he already spoke. You now know it's ruined the surprise. it's my esteemed co host, George Dowderman, president of Valiant Technology. Hi, George. How are you doing today?

Georg Dauterman:
Yep. Hello, Megan. I'm great. I'm great. Yeah, I'm just excited to kinda wrap this up because we heard some really great conversations and I think office moves are one of those things that are like massively stressful that on the surface look like are gonna be fun, but they're absolutely not.

Megan Quick:
No, I think what's the there's like a I feel like there's some common wisdom or a saying I've heard or I think it might even be statistically backed, but the two most stress moving is the most stressful thing after losing someone, like grief and like divorce or breakup. Like it's the most stressful thing.

Georg Dauterman:
Yeah, it's it is really like a bo and I think the biggest part of it is that moving an office is completely different than moving your house. So, you know, you maybe you had the experience of moving your home or you moved, you know, college dorms or anything like that, but it's it's a very different activity and it's one that the more you can get expert advice, the better the outcome almost usually will be, for sure.

Megan Quick:
The yeah, and it's I mean that's sort of what we're gonna dive into with this episode. It's like who to talk to, when to talk to them, 'cause it is it there's so many different ex I mean, and I do and it folks, if you are listening to this episode and you haven't listened, we did an office part one office moves part one with Josh Berger, he's great. And then we also did Office Moves Part Two with Jason Cole. But it that's just goes to show you like the how many experts and

Georg Dauterman:
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Megan Quick:
perspectives you should probably invite in as you're approaching this very big project.

Georg Dauterman:
Cur and we haven't even we we didn't even scratch the surface really. It was Josh obviously doing real estate and and Jason sort of A V and wiring, low voltage wiring. and w we haven't there's still so many other vendors or or partners or people involved in it that, you know, from a real estate attorney through furniture designer. So there's so many places that are complicated.

Megan Quick:
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Georg Dauterman:
the the the the the pricing is probably different than you assume it's gonna be. there

Megan Quick:
Yeah, and usually not in the direction you want. Yeah.

Georg Dauterman:
You should cheaper is not the usually the word I'd say. Lower cost is not it. So yeah, for sure, for sure. you know, and I think the biggest surprise that people should have always you know, is that well not surprised, or just a plan for the unknown is that there are gonna be significant costs that you never thought about, like got paid overage on the elevator operator.

Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm.

Georg Dauterman:
you have to because you're working on a Saturday or you can't have the furniture delivered during working hours because it makes too much noise in the building. So that you know, or delivery's gonna be on the curb. And you know, the danger's always that the more you do yourself, the less expertise you have in knowing what to do when it does go wrong. so it gets it gets really tricky really fast. So

Megan Quick:
No, thank you for saying that. Cause I do think the surprise element, it's like you do have to kind of prepare to don't want to say prepare to be unprepared, but like prepare to be surprised, like kind of have that mindset going in and try to assemble a team of folks who can are who are solution oriented when it comes to problem solving and who are gonna figure things out. so George, I and I I'm again sorry, you were not witness to a thousand office moves. You were probably probably

Georg Dauterman:
In the in the hundredths though, for sure.

Megan Quick:
Okay, if you say that, then I didn't say it. but so as someone who's kind of been able to watch participate in that many office moves, do you have a story, no names, but of a time when it did go off the rails? And do you remember like how you found the a solution to the problem?

Georg Dauterman:
Yeah, you kind of reset. So y you know, it it's interesting in that it's what we would consider a disaster may not be the disaster that the client considered or vice versa. I can think of one customer move we did where there was we had an emergency meeting about the fact that they couldn't install the locking mechanism in the building because it wasn't compatible with the or wasn't able to be interfaced with the fire safety system. So they had to hire a guard for like a week and a half on extra costs they didn't know about. So that's a pretty that's a pretty that's more common than you would think because you know you can't have like electronic locks or magnetic locks that are not tied into fire safety because if the fire sa the fire in the building, the doors have to open up and release. I'm not an expert in locksmithing, but this is one of the things that was like a huge sort of barrier or issue for the customer because, you know, they had they had you know, it was a pretty large move. they were consolidating three offices into one. There was, you know, tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of IT equipment plus, you know, they were apparel company, so samples and just stuff everywhere. And so, you know, they had to they protect it. And it was really stressful because it was like, you know, Friday at four o'clock when the when they find out this is the case and yet they're like scramble to go for it. But I think the worst I'm gonna be more general, but the thing I seen that goes off the rails the most is that people don't anticipate dates correctly. Like, hey, this is gonna happen over Christmas. one of the things I always had really hard to unless if you ha unless you're willing to spend a lot of money. This is our the you know mo most problems can be solved with money. but if you're trying to be econom economize, you don't want to move your office during like a holiday period because it's just harder to get people to do work. It's it's just more difficult to get the building people on board. It's just and it's more so that you you really you really are at the mercy of other people. And that's the biggest

Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm.

Georg Dauterman:
I guess maybe that's the biggest off the rails part is that you're under mercy of the furniture dealer. You're on the mercy of the of the mover. You're on the mercy of the e everyone. 'Cause you're trying to get your stuff and people aren't working. Now, it's a lot better now, than it was in the past because people are sort of work are used to working more remotely and there's a lot more systems in place for remote work that are not that weren't there in the past. So it's

Megan Quick:
Yeah.

Georg Dauterman:
Better, but it's not perfect, right? In such meditation.

Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm. and here, quick pause for Rob, George. just make sure you're just because it's just the two of us. make sure you're talking a little louder, but that's all. Also all salient incredible points, so don't worry. I just noticed. well, and I'll go back in. okay, the point about the locks and the fire system, that I feel like

Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. Okay, sure. Okay. No, it's okay.

Megan Quick:
If anyone's listening to this episode, they've already learned something. They've already you've already possibly saved a company a huge headache slash money from that story.

Georg Dauterman:
Hundred percent. Yeah, I I a hundred percent. I mean, this is the sort of stuff where you really need to like I I always recommend in this case, unless if you've done enough of these moves, there's a lot of folks out there that could help you project manage these. And one of the best moves we ever did was with a with one of our customer, law firm customer, and they hired a r a professional project manager that all they do is office relocations. And whatever money they spent on this gentleman. was probably well worth it because it was like a precise operation. They like shut the office down a certain date. The movers, us, every every vendor, every partner, everyone involved, subs, the gentleman really kept everyone moving forward and was very Calm. It was a very calm move considering that most moves is frantic. You know, it feels like you're tearing the office apart, which you are. you're trying to get everything done in a day. And it this was like we knew what we had to do exactly how to do it. And that was really powerful.

Megan Quick:
I I love that because it's also I mean, I think not to relate it a little bit to manage service provider and that work, but I think we f like people can't always conceive of the fact that IT is a full time job until until they have they try to deal with it themselves and it

Georg Dauterman:
Right.

Megan Quick:
You even talking about them having a project manager who, was the coordinator for everything who had a lot of experience in this. And it's just like, wait, it's sort of like an event planning. You think you can plan an event and then you try. And you're like

Georg Dauterman:
hundred percent. Or a wedding or or, you know, it's a it it there there's a there's a there's a reason why people get paid to do things. And and you know and you're you know one of the most powerful things you can do is leverage other people's experience and knowledge to get the outcome you're looking for. And you know, obviously not everyone has enough funds for that, but there's a lot of resources out in the in the world that will help you get ready for it. And and and I think the other piece of it

Megan Quick:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Georg Dauterman:
that I was recommending is lean on the people you already work with who may have done this already or been through it themselves because there's always gonna be some nugget that could be very helpful.

Megan Quick:
Actually, and I feel like you've jumped ahead a little like to a question I wanted to ask. so I I wanna if I if you don't mind, I'll I'll ask it. But I guess what who on an internal team, when it's like you've done you're about your company's gonna do an office move. I've never done one before. Who on my team do I need to loop into this? Who do I maybe need to loop out of it? Like who, like in your experience, like who's the

Georg Dauterman:
Now go for it. Sure. So so the the natural person to do the move is like a CO slash operations manager type person who's used to getting things done, who's used to dealing with multiple internal and outside partners and vendors, stakeholders. they have the they have the authority to spend money as needed. They have the authority to make decisions when

Megan Quick:
Trusted folks, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Georg Dauterman:
decisions need to get made because that's the other piece of it is decision making. thousand decisions, you know, each each each move can get really complicated or, you know, is and it really depends on what you're doing. Like are you moving five people from one co-working space to another? Are you building out a hundred thousand square foot facility? They're different. And generally the we work with small medium businesses, let's say a 40 person company building a new, a net new space. It's a pretty big undertaking. And it's in the millions of dollars by the time you're done with the total spend of like the space, the the the the legal, the the design, all the pieces that go into it, technology. And so the best person is someone that has a level of experience and authority, even if it's not in moves, but in the getting things done. the the I I'd say the The thing I'd rather say is that the person who you should do it is the person who shouldn't have do it. Sometimes the negative is a better way to approach a problem. So the the worst the unfortunate person I've seen get res get assigned this job is, you know, an executive assistant, a net new employee, younger, never did this before, never worked with outside vendors, never. And they're being asked, and all they're doing is sort of playing telephone relaying messages between the leadership and in the vendors because the the the leadership feels like sort of a low value activity which which on one level if it's like if you're in like a revenue generating role or leadership role, maybe worrying about, you know, locks or not your best use of your time. That being said, the person who's doing that has to have the authority to be like, okay, we're gonna make we're gonna go with this or We can spend up to this amount of money without having to ask or just have done and know a lot of this stuff. Because I I see it all the time where inexperienced persons doing it and just ends up being really stressful for them and the company doesn't get the outcome they're looking for.

Megan Quick:
I you're giving me flashbacks to when I first moved to New York, I I worked as a production coordinator for a theater show, which is has a lot in common with an office move, I would say. And they they treated it like it was a low-level position. They hired me and with little experience. And then you're like, you wanna do well. And I think what you just said, authority. I think there's it's not just that they have authority internally, but it's like they feel comfortable because the office move is gonna be about like.

Georg Dauterman:
Mm-hmm. yeah. Mm-hmm.

Megan Quick:
I have to decide on dates. I have to tell people when and where things are happening. I have to be the advocate and the like face of our company to all these different people. It's that's that's experiential unless you're a very confident young person and some some young people are. Yeah.

Georg Dauterman:
Young yo young or otherwise. I mean, it c i it's i I mean, young is this tends to be those people who tend to be in the sort of like an early in career jobs. But I've seen it the other people who, you know, not just age, it's just it's just something you haven't done before. It like like anything else, there's a lot there's a lot of expertise and nuance in everything you do. And this one has a lot of fit pitfalls that can go really bad. you know, it could be even go down to the fact that like

Megan Quick:
Yeah. Yeah.

Georg Dauterman:
I'll give you an easy one that we see that kind of ties into something that Jason's talking Like, I see a lot of folks be like, the the the building will build out and install the wire, the low voltage wireling. All you need to do is bring in your own guy to do the terminations. Now, that's not something anyone really wants to do because terminating it while not particularly complicated, you're relying on the other person to have run the cable correctly. And if there's a say there's a break in the wall or there's something wrong with the way it's been run, who fixes it? You know, you want clarity. I think maybe that's really what it comes down to. You want to you want to clarify who owns what and what part of the operation. And you want to work with people who've done it before. That's the other piece of it. It's like they've had experience in doing this before. They could tell you where they found it go wrong. And what they've done to overcome it and how to avoid it.

Megan Quick:
Speaking of things, how like how to avoid things. now I feel like with office moves, I feel like what a CEO of a small to medium sized business would see is like, no, there's so much potential downtime. There's so much potential l already like what we've discussed, things that could go wrong that take my team offline or make them not work at the capacity they should be working at. And I think you've already mentioned a lot of things that would save that downtime. I mean, even going back to hiring someone who specializes in the project coordination, it sounds like that company ended up saving a lot of money on unexpected cost. Yeah.

Georg Dauterman:
They I they did, I mean, they kind of got jammed up on finishes, unfortunately, like which is which is one of those. And well, for people who don't know finishes are like the actual like paint and trim work and you know, it could be even down to like decor decor to some degree. and it's one of those parts you can spend functionally infinite money on. You know, I've seen I've gone to many a a

Megan Quick:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Georg Dauterman:
construction or planning meeting for new business or new a new construction. And you know, I've seen people have like these like, you know, drag out brawls over like the paint color for a door wood stain. And, you know, you know, from my perspective as someone who does like the technology, I'm always like, I don't really get it. whereas other people who design, that's a big deal.

Megan Quick:
Hm.

Georg Dauterman:
And and so y you know, each person they'll have their own little area of responsibility and you know, then you can't even underestimate some of the things that you may not have ever dealt with or what happens after you deal with it. Like, do you you know, so so either do a brand new build out for you? Who's gonna maintain the air conditioning unit? Who's going to clean the office? Who's going to actually even earlier that who's gonna help you get the office cleaned up? before your team moves in. I mean, do you I mean, generally speaking, the contractors don't do that. I mean they they leave it was called broom swept, which is sort of like a term, a nebulous term of, you know, dubious cleanliness. They there's still construction dust and, you know, do you do you hire someone to come in and do this a full tactivano clean for you? You know, do you do you do you attempt to do that yourself? so there's like there's like a hundred places that

Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm.

Georg Dauterman:
Could really go wrong and not to harp on it, but I really talk to people have done it before. That's the really most important thing.

Megan Quick:
No, I love that and I love coming back to that. And it's just like people who've done it before and I think you said the word clarity before too of just like things will come up. It's about and this is actually true, I feel like, in a lot of IT in general, especially when we have to react to something that's happened. But it's just like be clear and communicate as effectively as possible to overcome the things that do come up. Cause the

Georg Dauterman:
Yeah.

Megan Quick:
The sooner you can communicate about it or have clarity on a situation, the sooner you can resolve it. Yeah.

Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right. Well deeper well deeper than that even not not to get to the metaphysics or the philosophical Philosop philosophize.

Megan Quick:
I honestly I wanna philosophi philosoph my god, philosoph philosophize. my gosh, that's an that's an old hang up for me.

Georg Dauterman:
I I I struggle with that one too. I I think I think one area that's really critical, maybe this is this this goes into like management mindset sort of thing, but you really just want to clarify the outcome you're looking for, result you want the folks to do. it's really tempting to micromanage people while they're doing this project and a project this scale and this cost, and the impact it'll have if it goes wrong. But you really need to have the right people and trust them to do the job correctly. And and really the other piece I think that's really that I found worked really well is if you start walking through the entire project together as a team and so they can understand what's gonna happen. Like, hey, on the week before the move we're gonna make sure everyone's laptops are ready and working so we they can work remotely. Then we're gonna test out all the systems to make sure that you are we're gonna make sure all the backups are in good order. then you know and and then and then That's from the IT perspective, but like if you take each system or impacted area of the operation, you can and you and you start making some contingencies and thinking and working through them, you'll find that you'll identify problems before you and this gets into like a sort of projectslash you know accomplish things mindset thing, but the more you can pre-flight the move. And almost visualize it. And maybe even put on a on a whiteboard, who's gonna do what, and then assign a person to own that thing and have them do it. Nebulous responsibility will kill you here. Like in most things, but here in particular, because the time the time f the time crunch gets r very real. You know, if the movers are the movers show up to move the desks, but no one's broken their computer down. Unless if you paid for them to do that, they're just gonna stand there and and look at you until you do it. 'Cause that would that wasn't part of the remit.

Megan Quick:
That's yeah, and it's like they can't mess with your, you know, there's all that. Like also, George, two things I want I feel like t you've you've you dropped like two bars today. I feel dubious cleaning and nebulous responsibility. I feel like those are first of all, in in office moves in general, but also I feel nebulous responsibility is such an incredible concept and just like

Georg Dauterman:
yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Megan Quick:
You don't want that moment where the team, your team, the mover team, whatever, everyone's looking wide at it at each other. That's the worst feeling. There's like that moment of it's like, have the Yeah, go.

Georg Dauterman:
I thought I thought you were gonna do that. Which is Yes, I thought I thought you were gonna do that. I assumed you were gonna do that. and and the more the more disconnected at times the the

Megan Quick:
That can destroy relationships.

Georg Dauterman:
the the people with decision making are from the ground, that's when it goes really well. I know people I know a lot of folks in this space and the people are really good at it are very over communicative, they're very clear, they're direct, and they're really getting answers quickly. and then executing. And I think having that mindset really is critical here. Just having that here. So I think I think that the the

Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm.

Georg Dauterman:
very clear who owns what part of it. That's just who's owner. And if you have to write it down, I highly suggest you do, write it down. Write each piece down and then ask your partners, hey, is this right, is this the right person to do this? Or is this or you know, from my team, or do I need an outside person? Do I need whatever that really looked like. and not to go back to something that both Josh and and Jason said, the earlier you start this, the usually the better the outcome. I'd say the minimum six months.

Megan Quick:
Yeah, I I think you and I have met folks we we often will meet folks who they contact us because they're gonna move offices and they realize they need their IT set up and everything. And we've had the people who are there like two weeks from now and we're like, And then we've had the people who say a year from now and we like throw them a parade because we're so happy.

Georg Dauterman:
Correct. Hundred percent. Yeah, if I I you know, it's actually one of our key in our QBR process, it's just to ask like, hey, are your this office when's your lease up? When are you you know, just just just what's your plans for this office or location? It's a huge part of what we do. And and while it looks like it's fairly straightforward, we all know it's not. It's a complex it's a complex thing. Long moon parts, we have to we from our perspective, we have to coordinate a lot of things to make sure that the move goes off.

Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm.

Georg Dauterman:
Flawlessly, really is what we're trying to do. And, you know, it and also and you gotta define success. maybe that's actually a put a let's go really to the end versus the beginning. What's a successful move? It's the move when people come in on that Monday or Tuesday, whatever day you designate, and they are excited to be in a new, fresh space, and they just start moving in and they start getting setting up, and there's like a high energy. And they're checking out the new kitchen and they're commenting about the bathrooms, hopefully positively, and the conference rooms, and they just get started. And you can tell when it's going well because people are setting up the desks and they're getting on calls and they're and they're and they're communicating and they're kind of making it home. And where it goes bad is when people are struggling to even find where they're sitting.

Megan Quick:
I I really love that insight or just that broad overview because I think what you're describing is the difference between a pot like the difference between this a move being a really positive thing for a company like or a a really n a big drain on a company. And it ha it's such a big change. It has the power to be either. this reminds me of our conversation around onboarding and what is a move but a sort of massive move.

Georg Dauterman:
Right. Yep. Yep. Yeah. it's a it's yeah, it's a it's a reset. It's a giant reset in companies. unfortunately, this is give you the IT once again, nothing from my my own IT guy perspective, but IT person. yeah. People tend to wait to do things. They say, Well, we're moving in six months, we're moving in three months, we're moving in three years, whatever it is.

Megan Quick:
Mm monstrous on We don't have to get to I'm yeah. Yeah. That's why we're here. I wanna hear it. Yeah.

Georg Dauterman:
we're gonna wait to do an improvement to make a change. And that's really a mistake in many ways because you really want the benefit of the thing that's working properly as soon as possible. You know, I I've if I had a nickel for every time someone wasn't able to say, well, you know, we're gonna hold off on the network upgrade until we move, but the network has some significant flaws in its design or it's outdated. And the people and the employees are limping along not working properly. Usually it's on a Wi Fi, almost always. and it takes and it really impacts the team's ability to do work. you know, our favorite thing is when people are like, Hey, we just want this in this to work. And, you know, and I get a question quite often in new business to like, well, if we make this investment in a network, can we move it? And it's almost certainly always yes, unless if it's over like five years old at that point. that you're sort of at the edge of like when you're like, it's not really worth moving. but so does yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you you want you really want it to be very clearly understood why we why don't want to hold off on making improvements for moves. Like the move the move is at inflection point to make change, but Don't wave don't use it as the as an excuse not to make positive changes in business. That's what I'm trying to say.

Megan Quick:
it just sounds like a compounding of downtime. It's like we're gonna move in n in nine months, the Wi-Fi is limping along, we're gonna let it limp along until we add this other variable that makes it really hard to do any work. no, that makes sense. And George, I know we hopped around a little bit, but I really I just and I I the flow felt good. And I I guess we could end on I let's end on like the I guess if you have

Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. yeah. Yeah.

Megan Quick:
seeing a successful move like what you you talked about the project manager. So actually you might have already answered that. But just to sort of recap, like what are the three things, maybe even five things a company maybe even five a company can do as they are getting ready for an office move or considering it.

Georg Dauterman:
It's right. So if you're considering a move, the first thing you should do is a talk to professional people in that space. Right? Obviously you don't want people hounding you and you know being, you know, irritating about like, hey, when are you doing this? When are you doing But people you trust and know. I'd say for a good size move over thirty, forty people, let's say, even less, just because of the complexity of here in New York or Northeast. I'd say a year to nine months. You should really sort of know that you're gonna do this. From there, I'd be very, very I would appoint someone to be responsible for the move. And someone with authority and the accountabil to be accountable and have the authority to be accountable to the leadership and to the staff to make sure it gets done correctly. From there, I would start working with All my I would make a list of all my vendors, I would start getting all that clarity. The other thing I'd say that sort of popped in my head right here is have a backup for the person who's accountable in case they're not available. Because I've seen that where so and so goes out on sick leave or something happens or you know, there's a delay, so now there's the intersects with some kind of vacation or something. We don't know. And you really want to have multiple you don't want you don't have one person accountable and you want to spare. This in the backup. And maybe that's part of your your your rhythm of your leadership meetings or your management meetings to be like, hey, this is the status of the move, this is it, and make it operationalized. Don't treat it like an afterthought. So maybe that's maybe that's the most important thing is this is not afterthought. This is a massive expense to your company. It's super disruptive. And if it goes well, it'll have a really big impact. If it goes bad, it'll have a really big impact.

Megan Quick:
And you can decide which way that impact if it's a p plus or a negative. that's I mean, I I think that feels like a very good place to stop. But George, is there any last thing you wanted to say about office moves in general? I think you've said so many good things this episode.

Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. You choose choose your own adventure on this one. And yeah, a hundred percent. Hundred percent. I th I think just pick your person, do it do it early and over communicate and and really try to do the contingencies. They have have that kind of like think that s systems thinking of contingencies. you'll thank you'll thank yourself later.

Megan Quick:
All right, that's great. Thank you so much. And then, audience, if you want to hear Office Moves Part One and Two, you can also find that on Valiant's podcast page. the link will be will be attached. But thank you again, George, as always, for chatting with me. And thank you all for joining us. And we will see you next time on the creative stack.

Georg Dauterman:
Thank you. Thanks everybody. Bye now.