About Brian Klein
Brian is an unconventional lawyer who leaves a memorable impression. Known for balancing personality with effective legal counsel, he founded Weinstein + Klein on the belief that practicing law doesn’t have to be dull or impersonal. He sees his role as making sure clients are informed, engaged, and maybe even a little entertained along the way.
Brian has earned the respect of clients and peers alike. A testament to his unique approach is the fact that several former adversaries have later become clients (don’t worry, he won’t share… unless you’re sued). He has been recognized throughout his career by legal industry organizations and publications for his work in labor and employment law, including honors from New York Super Lawyers and the New Jersey Legal Awards.
Beyond his practice, Brian has shared his expertise as an Adjunct Professor at Hofstra Law School and contributed commentary and analysis to publications including Eater and the International Business Times. An active member of several bar associations and professional committees, he regularly contributes his insight on labor and employment law issues within the legal community.
About Damien Weinstein:
Co-founder and managing partner of Weinstein and Klein, a law firm representing small and mid-sized businesses in corporate transactional and labor and employment matters. Founded in 2019, Weinstein and Klein has grown from two employees to approximately 25. During this time the firm has appeared twice on the Inc. 5000 list of fastest-growing privately held companies in the U.S. and most recently in 2026 was awarded the Inc. Best Workplaces award.
Megan Quick:
I guess it's stopped counting down. All right. Hello, and welcome back to the Creative Stack, a show about the intersection of creativity and technology. Hello, everyone. I am your host, Megan Quick. I am joined, as always, by my co-host and president of Valiant Technology, George Dowderman. Hi, George. How are you doing? So good to be here. It's rainy in New York. We're we're managing. And George, we've been really excited about this episode because we have two.
Georg Dauterman:
Hey Megan, good to be here today. Thanks. Yep.
Megan Quick:
very special guests joining us today. Please, everyone, welcome to the pod, Damien Weinstein and Brian Klein, partners at Weinstein and Klein. Hello, Damien and Brian. How are you?
Brian Klein:
Fantastic. How are you?
Georg Dauterman:
Great, thanks. Awesome. Awesome. We're so happy to have you here. We're such huge fans of of you of the both of you and the work you guys do. And love to hear your origin story because you know, every every podcast has to start with the origin story of of the folks that are on it because how you got here is almost as interesting as what you're gonna talk about, I think.
Damien Weinstein:
I don't know.
Megan Quick:
We're really good.
Brian Klein:
The origin story is always the best part. So for us, it started way, way, way, way, way back because I have known Damien's wife since we were about five years old. And we grew up together, we were in kindergarten together, we became friends, and then we got older, we didn't really get taller, but we got older, we stayed friends, and then we went from kindergarten all the way to college. So Damien's wife, Mary Ellen, and myself went to the same college, UMass, Amherst.
Georg Dauterman:
Wow.
Damien Weinstein:
Mm.
Georg Dauterman:
Nice.
Brian Klein:
And would you know it? Mary Allen found the love of her life at UMass as well in the form of Damien. And the three of us became very good friends. Fast forward the whole yada yada yada. We both became lawyers, very unhappy lawyers. Different reasons why we're unhappy, but we were at different firms. Obviously, still were incredibly close as friends. And then yada yada yada, I separated amicably, I believe is the term from my firm.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah.
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah, right, right. I think
Georg Dauterman:
So so you weren't escorted out, is what you're saying.
Brian Klein:
And I was not squirted out. I was not squirted out. I was I was told to leave, but I wasn't squared out.
Damien Weinstein:
They watched. They watched. They they made sure he left the building.
Georg Dauterman:
Okay. Make sure that badge is deactivated before the end of the day. Amicably.
Brian Klein:
They watched cl amicably, but close amicably. And so I had always wanted to start a business, but I never wanted to do it alone. So I I I hung up a shingle January twenty nineteen. I believe I mentioned before Damien was also very unhappy. but Damien was not asked to amplify because Damien was a a much better lawyer than I was. So so they liked him more at his firm. But I had always wanted to do something with another person and I always wanted to do something with Damien, and so Fast forward to June of twenty nineteen, the two of us joined up and formed what is now Wine C and Klein and honestly have just been growing it ever since we we saw the space in the market to basically work with the types of clients that we wanted to work with and really just grow a business that we wanted to to work at. And like I said We were both unhappy at our former places for very different reasons, but you kind of take all that together and try to create something better.
Georg Dauterman:
Very cool. It it's always fascinating. It's it that's you know, I talk to a lot of people and how they start the business. It's always like, Man, it's not happy and I or or this urge that you feel tickle the back of your throat. You gotta get out there and do it. And, you know, and it the leap of faith for each other. is enormous. So congratulations to both of you for doing it. And and honestly, it's it's just knowing you guys for a long time, it's been great to see. So I just wanna give the comment on that. It's really unbelievable. You know, and it's so you know it was it was it how scary was it the first with our first day leave the I'm sure I'm sure Brian it was scary for you then no offense to Damien. Were you like, all right, this is what you gotta do.
Brian Klein:
Be honest with you. I I really wasn't scared January to June. The most fearful that I was, true story, is the day that Damien was giving notice at his firm. I couldn't get anything done because I'm like staring at the phone and I don't hear from him for a long time. And your mind immediately goes to the worst places, and you know, Damien can tell story himself, but it turns out the reason why he didn't.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Okay. I can see it.
Brian Klein:
share anything it's because you had a really good conversation at his firm and it was like this very amicable, pleasant exit. I'm like, what does that feel like?
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Which is which is unbelievable. And it's also that like it sounds like Damien as I try to work with the people I work with, hey, I'm so happy for you. I'm glad you're doing it following your passion. And it sounds like your for your former firm was very much like that.
Damien Weinstein:
Yes. It very much so. and i i I I think it was surprising at the time in retrospective. Perhaps it shouldn't have been surprising, but I just didn't know what to expect, right? I mean, I wasn't leaving to go to a competitor firm f of theirs. you know, there was a question of, you know, hey, are you taking any of our clients? And it was a a clear, you know, no, I'm not even, you know, really reaching out to them type of thing. And there's levels to that.
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Damien Weinstein:
above all, just kind of professionalism and not not burning bridges and not ruining relationships like that. And so I think once there was kind of an understanding of, hey, this is my best buddy and and now's the time and and you know, no one's gonna ever regret betting on themselves type of thing. I have to do this, there was also that kind of some of that air was taken out of the room that I think was building up and about to combust or I thought might might combust. And
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right.
Damien Weinstein:
It was all good. So yeah. So Brian, I I specifically remember that text coming in, like all good dot dot dot question marking point. And it for me it was a it was an on event, right? And and that's also really funny too, because right from Brian's perspective, it's a my god, how's this conversation gonna go? And from my perspective, it was a little bit of that as well. but it was the beginning of years and years of learning open communication and how we communicate with each other. Because to me it was a it was a non issue, right? You know, if if there was an issue, I would let Brian know, but also
Georg Dauterman:
That's awesome. Right.
Damien Weinstein:
Nothing would be said to deter me at that point. Once you decide to be your own boss, it's very hard to to think about anything else.
Georg Dauterman:
it you become almost unemployable, actually. That's a that's a whole other conversation for a whole other day. So but we could talk about that. That's great. I I love it. I love it. And so and Brian, you just to go t touch on something you said before. You said like you saw like sort of a space in the the environment or the the marketplace. And you know, I see so much stuff that you guys just know you guys and seeing what you guys put out there or present to the world. W what's what's that space that you see? Like w where did you see that? Like what was the thing that kinda got in your head?
Damien Weinstein:
It's yeah. It is.
Brian Klein:
It's working with small business owners and being a place where they feel supported and spoken to like people. And the interesting part there was at my old firm, it was it was focused on labor and employment law. And that's my background. So it was very much siloed within that. But we were working with those types of businesses and it was very much a, you know, we'll only say Latin if you want us to, type of situation. Like we will
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Brian Klein:
Talk to you not like lawyers, but like people, so you understand what is going on here. And we're much more like the proverbial like consigliary as opposed to an attorney. We're kind of a business partner, we just happen to have law licenses. Take that concept, and what we really saw was if you are a small business owner, and we always joke, small business is such a gigantically poorly defined term, like you could be I think the New Jersey small business definition is like if you have
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Brian Klein:
five hundred employees and you do half a billion dollars, you are a small business like something like it.
Georg Dauterman:
It's yeah, it's nuts. Yeah, I mean the the market the way it's defined is the silly. So many ways. Right.
Brian Klein:
So let's say traditional small, right? that we would think, and you have these companies that are legit companies, and they either didn't have the types of firms that they could go to for the majority of their needs. You would have a solo here or a small firm there that would specialize in labor and employment law or litigation or corporate, but nothing was really under one roof. Or you can go to these bigger firms where you didn't have personal attention, you were charged obscene.
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Brian Klein:
amounts of money, but they gave you all the services. And so could you create this space that combine the best of both of those worlds? It's such a cliche and I cringe when I say it, but it's good it's marketing to a certain degree. It's like small firm field, big firm capabilities. And you gotta say it just like that too.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Ha ha But you actually gotta say big enough to serve you, small enough to know you.
Brian Klein:
I like that. I'm gonna hear that. Yeah.
Damien Weinstein:
That is that has appeared on no law firm websites ever, I swear. We just invented that right now.
Brian Klein:
None. That's a
Georg Dauterman:
yeah, we've never seen that before ever. We have no idea.
Brian Klein:
So it's like, imagine what if someone actually backed up what they said? What if you actually like did give the big firm, you know, experience small firm feel? And so we sought out to create that space where you could represent these types of businesses with amazingly wonderful, talented, smart, capable people that could give you all of the offerings that you would want from a substantive perspective.
Damien Weinstein:
kind of fear, trademark problem.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right. That's cool.
Brian Klein:
While at the same time understanding that we are a service industry, we are serving people, we are lawyers, so you know we're licensed professionals, but we are very much, particularly when you operate in this space, we are kind of like a nice restaurant or a resort. And we want people to have that experience where you are gonna get all of the great
Georg Dauterman:
Man.
Brian Klein:
Pearls of wisdom and your documents are going to be immaculate, your handbook is going to be so beautiful, you could hang it in the Louvre type situation, like all that things that go in there. But you're also going to enjoy the experience. And that's kind of where our tagline was born out, or what one of our taglines, you know, people say you're not like other law firms, we say thank you. So combining both of those things.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Yeah. Right. I love it. great and it's and it just working with you it's very true. You guys are like antithesis of like the giant emo you know law firm or the partner you've never you saw him once and you but you get his bill and you have no idea. You know you're like what is I can sweet to that guy. Yeah I review the case though I review the notes you're like I I don't think you did but okay. versus or or or where it's like you said a solo that can do one thing really well for you but then you say Hey, I have this insert need. And they're like, I really can't help ya. You know, so that's very true. And
Brian Klein:
You gave the you gave the example when we were just riffing before we thank you, producer Megan, click and record. You were talking about like the the contractor but doesn't do concrete. Like you could have the contractor, but then you gotta get this other person who is not the co the concrete person. And maybe that guy's great, but you got two different companies right now and there's two different invoices and they're maybe not getting the same time.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. W right, it's well it's like it's w the in in our world in the IT services where we always have to use a a great low voltage vendor, right? That do the install of the cables. And we always tell people like you can use the electrician or the contractor and I'm sure they'll be fine. But if there's a problem with the way it's pulled or something that you'll you don't you don't have a recourse and and you don't know who and like you can't like, hey, this is not working and it's not integrated and it's not and once again, this there's a great sometimes it's great to have a quote unquote best of breed. A lot of times it's good to go with a fully integrated solution. And so sounds like you guys are built a really fully integrated solution. And Damien, and so Brian you said you work in employment law. Damien what do you specialize in? What do you put your energy towards?
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah. So our it's it's interesting. I have a litigation background, which one of the reasons why we were excited to get out of I was excited to get out of my old firm and and launch this this project, which is now a full fledged business with Brime, is I wanted to get away from litigation. I didn't enjoy it for all various different reasons. Some people really do, and and good for them. Our practice area now, and and this is the other kind of almost other half of the firm, so to speak, is corporate and transactional work. So really everything business related from hey, I
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right. Right.
Damien Weinstein:
I have an idea and I think I want to start a business to my God, we started that business 20 years ago, it's worth millions and millions of dollars, and now I'm ready to sell it to private equity, a competitor, a key employee, whatever it may be, and everything in between from the business and employment perspective. So our group really focuses on corporate transactional stuff. But it's interesting coming from that litigation background, you litigate contracts, you litigate and negotiate disputes over contracts and certain types of provisions and arrangements and business dealings.
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Damien Weinstein:
You learn a lot about how to structure these things in a way that mitigates that risk or minimizes that risk of something going into dispute. So it wasn't my trained background. So part of our effort, I I'm probably jumping ahead a little bit here in terms of how we how we started and how we got here is as soon as we could hire some really smart people who are much better at doing some of these things than than we perhaps were, we started hiring. Right. And that's how we started growing. And suddenly that's how we were able to elevate ourselves within the firm, take the firm, expand it, and and it's it's been great. So we've got, you know, a handful of attorneys who focus on labor and employment, handful of attorneys who focus on the corporate transactional work, everything from the day-to-day business contracts to mergers and acquisitions, and like I said, kind of everything in between.
Georg Dauterman:
It i i if I get hazard, I guess and sort of what we talked about earlier. You guys are trying to do the full solution from from the start of the business, like I had this idea to the exit and have it under one roof. So it's simple and one less thing that a small business owner or a founder needs to really think about when they're working. You know.
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah, I I I think Brian kind of nailed it before and and you nailed it in terms of how you teed it up there, but also before we started the recording of, you know, a lot of smaller businesses again putting aside what that means, because there are some very large, successful, big money small businesses out there, they kind of don't know where to begin, right? If they have people, employees or contractors, they need an employment attorney. If they have a business, they should probably have a business attorney at some point, right? There may be other local things, trademarks, dispute resolution.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. Right. sure. Right.
Damien Weinstein:
Potentially real estate, whatever it is, they don't know where to go. And if you can kind of, you know, show them, hey guys, you know, we're over here and we can help you. You don't have to work with Bill from that firm, Sue from that firm, and and Larry from the other firm, then then it's a it's a nice offering for people. And I think what's clicked is a lot of businesses didn't know that they had that option and that it was accessible to them both in terms of reasonable fee structure, in terms of picking up a phone and calling. And we're we're actually humans and we're not just some
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Damien Weinstein:
robotic lawyers over here who, like you said, George, you know, just send out an invoice once a month and that's it. Let's show them that this is possible. And that's that has really helped these clients realize that there's a need for an attorney by their side in their corner through every part of the life cycle of being a business.
Georg Dauterman:
Is it
Brian Klein:
Just to build on that, it it's what's so interesting is you can probably count on one hand the number of clients who came to us and said something like, I need a full service small firm business attorney. Usually what happens is someone comes to us or they refer to us because they have an employment issue or they have a corporate issue or there's a litigation issue. And then they work with us and they say
Damien Weinstein:
Okay.
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Brian Klein:
my goodness, you're fantastic. I can't believe I haven't found you yet in my entire life. Where have you been? I'm gonna tell my friends about you. You're fantastic and you're also really good looking. Like and besides all these things. All these things out.
Georg Dauterman:
all those things, yeah, for sure.
Damien Weinstein:
They not only pay our bills but they send us flowers. It's it's really nice, you know. Yes.
Georg Dauterman:
Cookies.
Brian Klein:
Dietary, if you're gluten-free, we'll do that too. Like all these things. So very, very considerate. They come to you with a specific thing, and then like, you do all these other things. And then they realize, yeah, I'm a business. I have legal stuff. I should have someone who is well versed in this legal stuff. You do this legal stuff, right? And we say we do do this legal stuff. We'd love to help you do this legal stuff.
Georg Dauterman:
I got it. I I hundred percent agree. It's a it's that almost like you need a addition project, if you want to call it that, to make sure someone know like I'm pretty good, but also g can you help me with this? And invariably it's it's that you you go from being someone solving a problem to a trusted advisor for people where you can actually help them and help their employees and help their help their clients indirectly by doing a great work. That's how that's how I look at what we do here as well. So yeah.
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah.
Brian Klein:
And the beauty there's so many great things I think about working with small business owners. Like obviously we're small business owners ourselves, so so we know this doubly true. but you're actually dealing very often with a lot of times the founder, definitely if it's not the founder, it's one off from the founder. And there's a trust factor. And you know, it's like no one ever got fired for like hiring Microsoft situation, like you're not dealing with these types of situations. Like like you're dealing with people who they want to work with people they trust. And it's a very high barrier to entry to get in there. And when you're in and you become that trusted advisor, I mean literally it's in the it's in the freeze. It's a really cool thing.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. It's it's unbelievable. It's I having a number of people I work with and I know you guys have this into your business and your and your your people you serve, it really is an amazing feeling when someone calls you up and says, I don't know what to do. And you're like, I I've seen this before, I got you. I gotta help you with this, you know. Or or I don't know how to fix this, but I know someone who does. And that's the other part of it that's really important, I think.
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Klein:
We know entrepreneurs are crazy. So, you know, to earn their trust it's it's a gotta do something you gotta do something right.
Georg Dauterman:
W w w well, I mean not the diagnosis of every entrepreneur out there, but they're all definitely neurodivergent. That's for sure. Exactly, exactly. So so with that in mind, you guys have seen probably hundreds of small businesses, if not thousands of small businesses right. What are the stuff you see that's like, my God, come on, people? Come on. Get it together. Like, what are the common things that are like consistently like
Brian Klein:
We're cra we're we're crazy. We're crazy.
Damien Weinstein:
An interesting bunch, I would say. Yeah. Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
Every time you see it.
Brian Klein:
From a legal end or just as I'm just like a general wrong of business?
Georg Dauterman:
I I'm it's an open ended question, Brian. Right, right. You can go anywhere you want with that. you know, I I I I'm just you know, it's a choose your own adventure kind of podcast.
Brian Klein:
say one that that that touches on both. a growth operational thing is also illegal and it's it's doing too much. It is not it's not delegating, it's not trusting your systems, it's not making sure that you have different channels and structures in place so that you are not the bottleneck and there are systems that allow you to efficiently get things done.
Georg Dauterman:
It's not it
Damien Weinstein:
I think continuing that it it it's higher too, right? There are there are a lot of businesses that we see that are just on the cusp of really taking off and they're kind of, you know, we're working with them on the legal stuff. But as you know, going back to that trusted advisor, naturally these conversations go to all right, stop the clock. How's business? How are things going? How are you and the partners of this? And you just start to become more of a therapist and a good listener than anything, as we all.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right.
Damien Weinstein:
do if you work with other business owners that's that's naturally what you do and and you find that sometimes you're saying it sounds like you just you need to hire some people the good the right people right you need to hire good people put them in the right seats and all those different things but doing too much you know kind of failure to launch because they can't get out of their own way I think I heard Brian say like bottleneck a hundred percent right and that's been our experience to a certain extent as well where learn we've learned from it and we try to kind of
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right.
Damien Weinstein:
Again, we're not sharing legal advice with our clients when we're speaking with them about this stuff, but we're saying, I mean, how many people are you? Okay, so what are you doing? my God, you do that every Tuesday. Can't you hire someone and bring them in to do that? Wouldn't that free up some of this time? And what could you do with that time? Right. We've all heard these podcasts, we've all read these books. We all know we need to do it. but it it's it's getting out of your own way and getting good people into the business to to do it.
Georg Dauterman:
Ha ha. Right. Revoked. Well, I think part of the issue too is that there's is like a two part to that. It's like there's a ego part, like I'm the I I order pizza better than anyone else. And then there's the a fear part where you're just afraid to even like let go. And you know, and sometimes having someone who you trust like yourselves saying, You know, do you ever think about this? It could be the catalyst, like push over the edge and like, maybe you're right. Maybe we gotta do that.
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah. We try. We try. And it it it's a it's a big thing. It ta it ties into culture, which is a big thing we talk about, right? Maybe that's another thing that we see a lot, which is maybe the flip side of that is people have a big business, you know, nice numbers behind it, nice headcount behind it, but there's a lot of turnover, right? And it's like you start asking some questions, you know, what's going on here? And it's you know, I'm I'm getting more into the employment stuff now, but but you know, they're they're hiring and promoting toxic people who might be good at what they do but aren't very
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Damien Weinstein:
productive managers or or or nice managers to work for. So what the hell's the point of that? Right. Everyone who works for that person quits within six months. You know, maybe there's something we can do here, right? We're just attorneys. We're just labor unemployment and corporate attorneys. but we're also business owners. So we know what it's like to make a bad hire. We also know what it's like to make a good hire. And we'll talk about that stuff.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right. But a a and what and watch and watch what happens when a good hire this launch. It's just someone the right person, the right seat that's passionate about what they're doing and there's and there's amazing to work with. Very true. Very true. You know.
Damien Weinstein:
sit just continue in that thread one last thing and then I'll I'll stop. I I do find and Brian and I have discussed this usually over drinks, you know, part of our f you know, our favorite conversations that we have with our clients are not legal advice, you know, are typically not billable. And it is it is kind of what we're doing right now, where you just start talking to them and you get to know them. It goes back again.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah.
Damien Weinstein:
gonna beat this this dead horse, but becoming that trusted advisor, right? What what's one way of doing that? Every Friday afternoon you might talk to one of your clients for 20 minutes and just hear them vent about their people. You know, maybe they've got a partner that they're kind of, you know, butting heads with on an issue or whatever it may be. And just being there to listen, you know, offer your advice, experience share, whatever it is, those are, I think, you know, from a personal and professional perspective, and I Brian and I've talked about this, incredibly rewarding conversations.
Georg Dauterman:
Sure.
Damien Weinstein:
Right. In many ways.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. I agree. Yeah, you when you see the change w when you see what when you see the person grow mature, it's really powerful. And and just be a small part of that is is amazing. And and I agree with you a hundred percent. I I mean like I work I've worked in technology a long time and quite honestly the technology changes but people stay the same. People are people, always no matter what, you know. I don't I don't know I don't I don't know if you I don't know if you
Damien Weinstein:
Well said.
Georg Dauterman:
Though that's not what the narrative is right now with AI, but it's still gonna be the same narrative at the end the day. But we'll get there in a second. Hold on a second. So one of the things I would like to ask, post pandemic, so you guys launched this whole exercise right before the pandemic. And then and right before, like, man, this is gonna be great. Twenty twenty is our year. Blows up. Now, how do you manage, how do how do you find working with people now scattered everywhere?
Brian Klein:
Right before it.
Georg Dauterman:
No, there's no more like like nexus of location. Doesn't matter what it used to. How do you find that from both a legal perspective and also from a like personal, like working with people?
Brian Klein:
So the bulk of our firm is still in person. so w so we are very much the bulk of of of where we're located is an in office experience where people come in a handful of days a week and you know it's hybrid and things like that because I think that makes sense. But it's very much it's still connection. And I think if there's one thing
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right.
Brian Klein:
That has become very clear following the pandemic, it is how important human connection is. And we can go, I'm sure, and like wax poetic about AI and things like that right now. But there is something that is completely irreplaceable about being in an office with people. Even something is down to and this was a great thing that Damien did like years ago, I think, at this point. But
Georg Dauterman:
For sure.
Brian Klein:
It's when you're on Teams, for example, and this isn't even but it's saying good night. So at the end of the day, you're remote right now and you just send a message when you're logging off, Goodnight.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah.
Brian Klein:
That is so powerful, but what I think gets lost in that is if you were in the office, what do we do every day? People pass by my office when they're leaving and they wave goodbye. Good night.
Georg Dauterman:
See later. Hey. Or or they popped their head in, like, hey, yeah.
Brian Klein:
Head in and say, Hey, I saw that email, what's going on? Which you don't really do necessarily. Or you're getting coffee and you start talking about your kids, or pets, or the Knicks, or whatever it is, and you have all of these things continue to build.
Damien Weinstein:
We are not sponsored by the Knicks, just to be clear on this podcast, right? We can be Nick.
Brian Klein:
So you have certain professional sports teams that you can talk about, or college teams, and again, you just have this accumulation of little moments that build to bigger moments. And the number one secret sauce, bread and butter magic that is our firm is the culture. And it is why we are going to continue to grow. It's it's why we've grown so much. It is having amazingly wonderful people that are also completely invested in like there's no IN team. We care about each other and we're going to continue to build an amazingly wonderful place. I just don't I'm not saying you can't do that virtually. I'm sure you can but I think you can do it better when you're connected.
Georg Dauterman:
I think a hundred per I th I think it's I think the intentionality, I don't know if that's even a word, d virtually it's I say whatever you want. If you want to do a yogi berra, go for it, right? but if you but like but you have to be like like way more intentional remotely and it may not always work. Whereas in person is a very natural sort of like our our inner like primate necessary tr you know
Brian Klein:
It's a safe space, George. Say it's a word.
Georg Dauterman:
need to be together and humans, we're social creatures, right? We're not isolated and we see look at the health impact of being isolated on people. Yeah she it's like it's like smoking two packs a day. You know, so I think that that has a really important component of it. So
Brian Klein:
One of the best things that we we have a a team lunch on Wednesdays. It's one of the best days of the week. It's just it's like you just get there and you start talking about T D or how Damien has never seen the Godfather and like you just have these conversations that come in there. We can we can edit that out. We can edit that out.
Georg Dauterman:
What?
Damien Weinstein:
We we have listened to you rail th this podcast in in a in a great way.
Georg Dauterman:
No, I have to stay in. That's great.
Brian Klein:
But you have these things and it's just again, this is this is how you
Damien Weinstein:
I am who I am. Keep it.
Georg Dauterman:
It's how you know well, it's it's when you know you know, it's it's actually interesting to say that we do an interesting not slightly different here now, but like one of the things we do is when people work here and they finish their ninety days, like we we myself and their manager takes them out to lunch, like a one on one lunch, just to know them outside of work because work you spend a lot of hours together. You should kinda know people you work with, at least on a on a base level at a basic level, like what sort of gets them going. And it it could be the Knicks, it could be it could be r running, it could be their family, it could be their church, any one of those things. But if you know that, you can really help them be the best version of themselves.
Brian Klein:
I'll take a very I can't help myself. I'll take a variation of that because obviously I've been doing labor employment law on the defense side for a very long time. And so a big part of my philosophy is it's it's almost like it's emotional intelligence and things like that. Because particularly when you're representing small companies, you you can't afford a lawsuit. Like it doesn't really matter and it gives no solace to say, I guarantee you we're going to defeat this lawsuit.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah, you have been. That's true. Yeah.
Brian Klein:
The point is, I don't want to spend the money to defeat the lawsuit, Brian. Like I can't have this lawsuit. And so much of our approach is nipping these things in the bud. A big way to do that, I think, is to make people feel seen, heard, acknowledged. So there's obviously an employment, a labor employment aspect to that one. But just continuing this whole thing of having your managers take people out to lunch and genuinely having an interest in learning about.
Georg Dauterman:
Huge.
Brian Klein:
these people, that I would imagine makes the person who is being taken out feel seen or acknowledged. this person actually wants to take a a vested interest in in who I am and I'm not just a line item on a payroll.
Georg Dauterman:
Correct. And and not not the riff for second on small businesses. Go ahead, George. Go riff. Having worked for a large enterprise myself in the past and I was younger, you really are just a line item on a P and L. Because no one knows you. I mean, I there's knowing the firm I worked at in big way off and how it went down from the inside. It's arbitrary at times. This is a number we've got to make. And this is how it is.
Brian Klein:
Rip a light, rip a light.
Georg Dauterman:
And when you work for a small firm, as much as the small firm can suck in many ways, because you're like together all the time and it's tight, at least you're a person and you're human and it matters and it should matter, right? You see you know, as it's seen, heard, acknowledged, hopefully understood, and if not understood, at least respected. And I think that's a beautiful part of working in a small a smaller environment and serving other small environments, you get to see that in person. And the people who do it really well, it's very impressive. That's sort of my take on it. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I try. I try. You know. but we haven't even talked about technology at all and I think that's kind of okay. I think it's a good thing. you know, I actually
Damien Weinstein:
Okay. Yeah. Well well said.
Brian Klein:
Good rest. Okay.
Georg Dauterman:
Curious, you know, you you guys have been talking about getting people avoiding things. How do you what's a good way to avoid besides acknowledging people? How do you avoid problems? What's your like number one avoidance? You like, all right, do this. This will help you avoid a lot of things. I mean, you can't avoid everything, right? Shit happens. But what are the things you're like, hey, just don't do this?
Damien Weinstein:
I'll I'll I'll throw the hat into the ring for that one. it is one of our core values, communicate, right? Communicate early, often overcommunicate if you have to. going back to sometimes the the conversations we have with our clients of of things that they can do or things to be aware of. hey, you know, I'm really, I don't know what to do about this employee. They're, you know, they're not performing the way I want. Brian, what should I do? Or hey, you know, Debian, whoever it is, I'm I'm not happy with the way this contract is working out with this vendor we have.
Georg Dauterman:
I lo yeah, good. Yeah.
Damien Weinstein:
Have you discussed that with them? Have you raised your concerns? Have you had a professional conversation, but a blunt conversation of, you know, you're not performing, Mr. or Mrs. Employee. You know, I'm not really happy with the services, Mr. or Mrs. Vendor, whatever it may be. communication just seems to kind of unearth things. And typically, the sooner you can unearth those things, you can actually address them, do something about it, and avoid it from blowing up, right? Because otherwise you're sitting there in resentment saying, I hate this person. my God, I can't believe I hired them. I can't believe I contracted with them, whatever the the the hypothetical is, and it's just kind of festering, right? And that always blows up, right? That that's human nature. That's not a legal thing. That's just who we are as people. Talk, talk about it. That goes by the way, that that is advice that comes straight from us because Brian and I talk, we speak with the team. You know, we just recently had a a new a new attorney in New Paralegal join our firm.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. Yeah.
Damien Weinstein:
And they were asking a little bit about, well, you know, how's it work in terms of reviews and feedback? And we're like, it is a constant line of communication. Like there is, there is always if you do something on a Tuesday that we weren't exactly thrilled with, you will know about it by Wednesday probably at the latest. You're not going to wait until your annual review to hear about it, right? And it's not because we're jerks. It's because by Thursday then you can improve. That's it.
Georg Dauterman:
Ha ha ha. Right. Well, it's and it's hard. It's that's a that's a I think that's one of the hardest leadership skills to develop is that is that clear productive feedback that actually comes from a place that I wanna see you improve, not I wanna hurt your feelings.
Damien Weinstein:
We've we've gone. I was about to say, we've yeah, we've gone so far as to hire consultants to talk to us about better ways to deliver feedback, better delays ways to deliver you know, constructive feedback and different things like that, so that we're making sure the message is landing. I tend to be very blunt and I've learned over time that not everyone's understands that bluntness is just bluntness. It's not anything else, it's nothing more than that, right? And
Brian Klein:
That to me is that's the kind that nice.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. Right.
Damien Weinstein:
And Brian's, you know, Brian rightfully so is it's about the messaging, not just the message. And you know, there's there's a lot of truth to that. And we've we've gone so far as to literally pay people to say, Hey, these are the types of conversations I need to have with my people. You know, how do I do it in a way that lands? And they say, you know, they get up after that and give us a high five and say, Awesome. All right, thank you for this, instead of saying, You're a jerk, I'm out of here.
Georg Dauterman:
I I I'm journey. Right. Well, I can't believe this these assholes. Right. It and I it's I think it's a struggle that every small business struggles with. I think every leader, I say small business, I think every leader, anyone who manages or actually even interacts with other humans struggles with. It's hard. It's a it's it's one of the hardest parts of leadership is to do that.
Brian Klein:
You go to the you go to the it it it people are so afraid of being you know, I I was being mean or anything like that. And and again it's it's one of my favorite lines. It's it's the goal is to be kind, not nice.
Georg Dauterman:
Yes.
Brian Klein:
And you know, the classic example of that is if someone has spinach in their teeth, being nice is to not tell them they have spinach in their teeth. The kind thing is to say you have spinach in your teeth. And just understand and this comes now going back to the whole thing, like there's different ways to do that. There can be blunt, there can be you know less blunt, but the rapid feedback loop is designed to promote
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Brian Klein:
We're not trying to be like we don't want to be nice. That's not what we're that doesn't mean we you're an asshole. But the opposite of nice isn't necessarily mean. And really embracing that point of feedback is a gift. I can cliche death right now.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Correct. Yeah. It's 'cause yeah, it it really is. Well, I always I I I always find that as a New Yorker, New Yorkers are kind but not nice. And that's very true, whereas that's not always the case for people outside New York or n or mid and northeast. Yeah. They're like, Yeah, they're kind of being nice to you, but they're jerks, you know. So it's Midwest nice. Well that's a very specific thing though. It's like it's like, you know, you're kinda like, wait a second, hold on. But
Brian Klein:
And darn a lot of times. What it, mid wet nice?
Georg Dauterman:
But yeah, you yeah, you that's a r that's a great point in especially for people that especially on a high performance team, you can't afford be nice.
Damien Weinstein:
Have you, George, have have you guys on your team read or or you read Radical Candor? It's a phenomenal book, right? If if if anyone is yeah, I mean, if anyone, if this topic resonates with people, it's a quick read, it's an easy read, and it's not a I don't find it a philosophical read. I find it a very actionable, practical type of read. Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
Well it's You you y you can do these things today and you can b and and and y and you can change the relationship you have with people really quickly with it, I find. That's very true. Yes. I struggle with this is one of my is one of my strong weaknesses as a leader, I'll say.
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah. Yeah. We all do. Yeah. We all do because it's uncomfortable telling somebody something that they may not want to hear, but trying to package it in a way where they understand they can let their guard down. You're not coming at them with your fangs out because that's what you're trying to do. You're you're really you know, it's it's cliche, but at the end of the day, we want all of our people that we're with, this is personal and professional, to be the best they could possibly be, right? We want everyone to win. So this is just a way to help you win. And if you can kind of see it that way. You know, they let their guard down, they're more receptive to it. You gotta, like you said, not be an asshole about it. and find that, you know, find that way down the middle and it it's it works nicely.
Brian Klein:
It's also in many ways it's a good barometer or calling aspect of you know you you need slash want people in your organization that are receptive to the right level of feedback. Obviously if it's the wrong type of feedback and it's cruel, it's mean, hurtful, like all those things, that's fine. But if you're delivering feedback in an emotionally intelligent way and and and you're doing the whole this is helpful, like I'm doing this to to help everyone here and
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah.
Brian Klein:
People are not receptive to that, that's a red flag.
Georg Dauterman:
100% you want in and you want people to like grow and be the is it the best version? And growth thing is really important. So all right, I'm gonna start talking about this. This is too much way too way too complicated a topic. We could have a whole other thing. This is you're giving me some roof for thought. you you will be back. This is not your first nor last time. This is your first time, but not your last time, I should say. so I from here, I mean.
Brian Klein:
We would love to come back.
Georg Dauterman:
I I was gonna ask you the million dollar question that everyone asks you, I'm sure to ask you. So I saw this Claude report that says that legal services are gonna be very badly impacted by AI. What do you guys think about that? And you're like, So, what do you guys think about that?
Damien Weinstein:
I love that. I didn't know where that was going, George. I'll I'll jump in first. I I think Brian, Brian probably is more eloquent about this than I am. You know, it it's we see it as an opportunity, I guess, is I'll I'll come out with that that statement first, right? Is it pressure on the industry a hundred percent? Is it going to change what lawyering looks like and what people's relationships with lawyers look like?
Georg Dauterman:
What?
Damien Weinstein:
I I think it already has, right? Imagine five or ten years from now, assuming it continues developing. but at the end of the day, there will be firms that embrace it and use it and grow with it. And there will be a lot of firms that don't. We are the former, I think I got that right. We embrace it and utilize it and work. Correct. and I think we're already seeing the benefits of that, right? And it's also a very open conversation with clients, right? Clients don't really ask because I think they're assuming, hey, are you guys using it? Of course we're using it, right?
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. You embrace it. Yes.
Damien Weinstein:
We do all the right things, do it above board, so make sure it's within the enterprise and all that good stuff. but it helps us become better lawyers and advisors, right? We stress test some of the things that we would do, right? Sometimes it's a lawyer conversation, sometimes it's a G GPT or Claude conversation. Then we can workshop it with each other and kind of keep perfecting it to make sure there's absolutely no loopholes, no ambiguities, no issues with this contract, right? There is one and only one way of interpreting this, right? And we've gotten that through.
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Damien Weinstein:
know, seven iterations of running this thing through AI. That's one example. but it's it's a huge opportunity, right? And so we're we're riding that wave and we think that firms like ours, we're obviously not the only one. Firms like ours will will kind of you know advance in a way that firms that resist it will not. And that's you know, that's okay. That's evolution. It's not I don't mean to sound cutthroat about it, but I think that's just a reality of it. Right. Somebody explained it to me of like
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Damien Weinstein:
Well, at some point people went on the internet, right? And and emails started to become a thing. And there were lawyers and professionals who said, I'm not doing this whole thing. And I don't know what happened to those people, but I'm assuming that they didn't do so well. Right. so it's you got to do it the right way. Open honest conversations with clients about it. They're using it too. And it's been kind of helpful because they get to come up with different issues that we're able to acknowledge and address. It's created as much work, I think, as it's
Georg Dauterman:
Hundred percent. for sure. Yeah.
Damien Weinstein:
quote unquote taken away from us. So we're actually comfortable with it.
Georg Dauterman:
yeah, w you hit the nail on the head. I the we we're looking at it as like this might be as big an opportunity for us the as the internet and cybersecurity and the cloud and all those things because it's such a radical shift in work. And that someone needs to help you manage it and navigate it and it's it's a very different thing. And and I think for legal services, I think the way I sort of I always interpret it for all professional services is that This tool is gonna help people understand it better. It's gonna help us do things. End of the day, do I trust this thing to decide my livelihood or my life? Is this the thing I'm gonna pin my entire is you know, like if you went to court for like a, you know, criminal trial, would you want the AI lawyer like, that was the wrong one? You know? So I think that's a thing to think about.
Brian Klein:
It's like with anything, it this goes all the way back, we're gonna go full circle about delegating and and things along those lines. You grow by having people be put into positions and seats that allow them to be the best version of themselves. So if you are an organization or you're you know, if you're a small business, you don't want Claude to be your general counsel. You want your general counsel to use Claude. And so you now have this situation and a firm like us that is outside general counsel
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right.
Brian Klein:
Let us be more productive and efficient and better by doing this as opposed to having it done in-house. To your point, like you really trust it without any oversight. I don't think we're anywhere close to those types of situations.
Georg Dauterman:
We're we're so far from it and and and I know from our perspective, from the technology side of the house, we're like, do not trust this because you don't it's is unknown provenance. There's so many places where people can go wrong. and I actually I I I I was on some networking event and someone was talking about open claw and I and I had to jump in and be like, please don't connect your data to this thing. Like you don't know where it's going, you have no idea. It's so dangerous. You know, like if you want tink and you understand what I mean to some degree, like obviously d you know I'm not an expert in AI in that regard, but it's a black box, but sorta know what you're giving it. Like at least have a sense of its scope. You know, that sort of thing.
Brian Klein:
I've also seen I mean, I've seen people being incredibly mean and hurtful to these robots and as an employment attorney I'm very much looking forward to the first robot discrimination and harassment lawsuit. So we're just gonna have all these new plaintiffs. So I think we're in a really good position to defend companies from these frivolous robot lawsuits for years and years to come.
Georg Dauterman:
You're gonna I I think Brian, I think you should be the first robot lawyer.
Brian Klein:
No no no, to me I'm still I'm a I'm a defense attorney, okay? I'm a defense attorney. So I'm gonna defend vigorously my clients against these robot discrimination suits.
Damien Weinstein:
Never change, right?
Georg Dauterman:
Oneroist. Problester robot. Overlords. I love it. I love it.
Damien Weinstein:
A quick a quick story on this. you know, one of the examples I sorry, I I probably should I should have chimed in with this one like 30 seconds ago. you know, so someone explained to me, and I was I was having lunch with a a few different attorneys and different practice, and someone explained to me, you know, if you ask AI right now, hey, I want to sell my car to to to George, right? Can you draft up a contract? It'll draft off a contract. That contract will work.
Brian Klein:
Sorry on on robot discrimination suits, I'm I'm dying to hear this story.
Georg Dauterman:
Ha.
Damien Weinstein:
It will be valid, binding, and it will work to get my car from me to you. All those beautiful things will happen. What it won't figure out, because it's not there yet, are the things like have we discussed and looked into or disclosed how many times this car has been in in an accident? Has it ever been used in a crime? Is it this, this, that, whatever it is, right? You're you're you're under due diligence. It's just not there yet, right? So this was the the the kind story that came up or the hypothetical that came up at this lunch. And the litigator there said.
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Damien Weinstein:
I can't wait for these disputes from these AI contracts to come because litigation is gonna boom, because a lot of people are gonna enter into really important. I mean, the car example is perhaps not as important or not as significant, I'll say, but you know, into these legal contracts that don't address a lot of these issues, that that's what lawyers are paid to do is to think about those types of issues. And something is going to happen, you're gonna say, shit, the contract doesn't address that. Well, of course the contract doesn't address that. It wasn't drafted by a trained lawyer. So insert litigator and they're just licking their chops because they're w they're they're assuming it's somewhere between a year and a half to two years before these things really bubble up, become an issue, and they're gonna be busier than they probably were before AI.
Georg Dauterman:
Also Yeah.
Brian Klein:
I saw someone once say, you know, one of the best benefits and one of the biggest hurdles of AI in the legal space is context. And so like like Ding and that was a great example. And then another thing that I think I saw on online was, you know, imagine the following hypothetical. So one party, you know, has representing a company for a buy sell, and they give their the APA to their robot and they say, Go through this and mark it up as best you can. Okay. It gets marked up, then they send it to the other side. The other side representing the other party in the by cell, they give it to their robot and they say, Review all the red lines and I want you to mark this up and give it back to the other side. At what point does that end? 'Cause the robots are just gonna keep marking it up and saying, This is ridiculous or this is bullshit or this is ridiculous.
Georg Dauterman:
Marking it up. Right. It it never you never have that moment where two attorneys where like in any negotiation where it's like my attorney's gonna talk to your attorney and the attorneys go, Hey man, how you doing? We're here to get this done. You're here to get this done. I I I've spoken to both of you about this because you guys are this this and you're like there's a certain point where it's this amicable, like, okay. It's not like T V. It's like legitimately like, we have a job to do, you have a job to do, let's get this thing done. What can we live with? What can they not live with? You know, and and you work it out. And almost invariably you guys walk everyone sort of walks away slightly unhappy. But that's gonna mean it's a good negotiation, right? That no one no one's really happy, but they kinda got Done with how to get done. It's really cute. So so important. So all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap up. I'm gonna keep talking to you guys for hours because I can keep going for two way too long. so I before I close, I just want to draw attention to something that you guys wrote a great article that I want you I want to totally highlight. It's called The Five People You Meet at the Closing Table. I think that's one of the best written articles and fascinating. But there's so much conversation now about private equity and selling businesses, more than it ever was. Like ten years ago, no one talked about this stuff as openly as now. So I just wanted to call it so w w what are some of the things that this having doing that, what are some of the things from that article that she just wanted to get out in the world that you think is like, hey, this is this is the thing? Or maybe raise more than one.
Damien Weinstein:
Well.
Brian Klein:
So the first thing I'll say is you should have the amazingly wonderful talented author of that article on your next podcast, Laura Garcia.
Georg Dauterman:
She you know what, Laura, is you know what I'm gonna I I that is a great thing. So, Megan, let's make it happen. 'Cause it's a great article. It's a great article and I mean but it represents what you guys do day in, day out, I think. It really was really well done.
Megan Quick:
Already wrote down. Yep.
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah. Yeah. There's it so so shout out to Laura Garcia, one of the partners on our corporate transactional team. She she spearheads the the business law blog. Brian is the brains and wit behind the labor and employment blog. this was a Laura special and it was phenomenal. and the true story is, and I just pulled it up here because I I want to have a talking point about it, but this came from Laura and I kind of complaining to each other is the nice way of of putting it.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah.
Damien Weinstein:
over a drink, by the way, because that's the best way to complain to someone or with someone, of all the different characters that you deal with in the process of buying or selling a business. All right. And there are a lot of characters. It takes a small village, so some of these characters are necessary, but people come out of the woodwork. There's lots of different personalities and egos and motivators, different things that you deal with.
Georg Dauterman:
It is. Right. Yep.
Damien Weinstein:
And I I think that was kind of the the genesis of it. I mean, she what she put together is is much better, much well drafted, better drafted than than probably what I could explain right here. But it's a it is a process for sure. And you have to going back to something you said before a few minutes ago, George, of just having someone on your team who can call up the other side, heard you know, heard the cats, put in every cliche you want to say and say, listen, what your client wants and what my clients want, you know, are essentially aligned, right? There's a couple things here. Let's just figure this out. Let's roll up our sleeves. Our clients want us to be want to be happy. We want them to be happy. That's good for business and it's good for everyone, right? And figuring out ways to make that happen. So I'll I'll give the shout out again to Laura. Definitely worth having on the podcast. She is when I referenced before hiring people who are smarter than you and and having them do do you know do a lot of the the client facing work that's who I have in mind one of the few many people we have in mind.
Georg Dauterman:
That's great. I And that's awesome. And and as it's gr it to me that the fact that she wrote it exemplifies the firm's mindset, which is great. That's really cool. Very cool. so all right, I'm gonna wrap this up in a second because I just wanna ask one more last question. if you're in new business,
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
Georg Dauterman:
Starting today, you're you're an idea, you're in your in your basement, you're you're workshopping an idea, what are the three things that you would say, all right, I gotta do these three things? These are three things that I so critical. If you don't do them, you're out of your mind.
Damien Weinstein:
Right, you wanna kick up?
Brian Klein:
So we plug plug our practice areas.
Georg Dauterman:
Whatever you guys what
Damien Weinstein:
Okay.
Brian Klein:
Agreement, you gotta make sure your corporate documents are online. Get EPL, make sure you have your employment counsel on speed dial.
Georg Dauterman:
Speed s it's one
Damien Weinstein:
I'll I'll I'll go back. So so one of them Brian said already, right? Like if you have a partner, simple, right? Just get a partnership agreement in place, right? It doesn't need to be beautiful. Brian and our ours was not beautiful. we've improved it over time because you got to get something just to to you don't want to have failure to launch because you're trying to come up with the perfect partnership agreement, but get something. two, going back to something we both said before, communicate, right? Communicate about your issues, your goals, what the firm is going to look like. what are your plans? What's the three year, five year, 10-year vision? Start those conversations early, right? You're not gonna be 100% aligned, and that's actually quite okay, but have those conversations with yourself about what's realistic with your partner if you have one. and then the third and last thing I I would say is as soon as you can surround yourself with good people. That could be advisors, it could be vendors like Valiant, it could be business partners like Brian, whatever it may be. That's a you I got that plug for you there, right?
Georg Dauterman:
Love it. Love it.
Damien Weinstein:
you got my back, I got yours kind of thing. And but but it in all seriousness, right? I mean, I'll I'll just say for a second, right? Those are the things that help a business grow, scale, survive, thrive, all those beautiful things. You cannot do it yourself. Someone there can do it much better than you. It is their job to do it, pay them to do it, take their advice, grow with them. That's what we've done with Valiant. We've been very happy with it. It's been a huge help to how we've been able to scale. and it's it's it's a hundred percent true.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Thank you. That's amazing. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And I mean I said you you guys have been great to work with and and and and then it's been it makes me really happy to watch the firm grow and this we never doubted it, but man, you guys really kicked it up faster than 'cause people take a long time. Growing's hard. People don't realize how hard and and I'll say that until you've done it yourself, you kinda don't understand how to do it. That's that's sort of the thing. Like it looks easy from the outside. Right.
Damien Weinstein:
Always does, right? Always does. Have you heard the and then I swear we'll wrap this up. Have you heard the the famous the Theodore Roosevelt quote, The Man in the Arena? It's a phenomenal one, right? And it's it's just when you're in the arena, you're in the ring, so to speak, you get it and you kinda don't if you're not, and it's not I'm better than you. It's just that's the experience, right? It's all of it.
Georg Dauterman:
I love it. It's it's It's the experience. It right. You you you you've taken the shot, both figuratively and literally and and you did it. Right. And and and and of course but and and it gets done and and then and then and then and that's how magic happens and and and things get done.
Damien Weinstein:
Yeah. I can shout out three times too, yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
and in and and we kind of advance as you know, as people and it's it's amazing. So all right, we didn't talk about technology at all. I love it. It was the best conversation I've had a long time. if there's anything else you wanna say, I I said if you guys if anyone needs legal services, S and B legal services or any legal services, my send a client great great people and most importantly humans. That is singular the most one of the most human yeah. They they have good looking too.
Megan Quick:
Right.
Brian Klein:
Funny. Funny funny smart. Good looking.
Megan Quick:
Ha ha.
Georg Dauterman:
You know, don't don't don't don't don't sell yourself short. I know. I know the feeling. All right. Megan, take us home.
Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm.
Brian Klein:
We try and we've got an extra.
Damien Weinstein:
Uncle Small. We can't say that one with a straight face.
Megan Quick:
Well, again, to echo George, Brian, Damien, thank you for joining us. Again, love we didn't talk about technology. It was so fun to listen to you guys discuss leadership and just really how to run a successful business that also takes care of its employees. I that was so fun to listen to. And yes, thank you all for being with us again. And tune in next time to the creative stack. Have a great day. Bye, Brian, bye Damien, bye George.
Georg Dauterman:
Right, I mean, thanks guys. All right, bye now.
Brian Klein:
Okay, great. Thanks everyone.