About Jason Cole
As the principal of Cole Audio Video, Jason Cole blends expert audio system design with a mastery of lighting and shade to shape the aesthetic and energy of high-end residences. By focusing on the art of light and sound rather than just the hardware, he provides clients with an intuitive level of control that works every time, ensuring the technology serves the home’s beauty without the friction of over-complication.
Megan Quick:
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Creative Stack. I am Megan Quick, your host, and I am joined as always by George Douderman, the president of Valiant Technology. Hello George, how are you today? I'm great, I'm really excited about this episode. We did Office Moves part one a few weeks ago with our friend Josh Berger and today we're doing Office Moves part two.
Georg Dauterman:
Great Megan, how are you today? Me too.
Megan Quick:
with our very dear friend, Jason Cole. Hi, Jason.
Jason Cole:
Hi Megan, hi George. Good.
Georg Dauterman:
Hey, what's up? Excellent.
Megan Quick:
How are you doing? So we're so excited to have you on today, Jason. George, we've prepped some questions and we just want to ask you about your view on office moves. George, take it away.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. So first I was like, again for joining us, Jason. It's always a great conversation, even when we're not recording it. So it's exciting. so you, so, you know, whenever we have an office move wiring AV needs, you are always our first person that we call like straight up like, Hey, we got to call Jason. But, most people don't really understand the difference between like what we do and what you do and what other people do. So you might give us like a 10,000 foot overview and,
Jason Cole:
Yeah Hmm
Georg Dauterman:
you know, and some of the stuff you do for your customers that helped them out.
Jason Cole:
Sure. You know, you and I have the same but opposite problem. And the customers say, you're a tech guy. You must know how to handle my computers. I'm like, no, no, that's George. And you get the same thing, being like, hey, I'm on Zoom on my computer. You can do my conference room, right? Yeah. Exactly. Right. But that's how we work together. That's the bottom line.
Georg Dauterman:
Hahaha I do. hundred every time. And I'm like, Nope, I don't do that. It's totally different set of skills. Right. Yeah. Yeah. People don't really understand like, there's like a little blurring of it, but the reality is I always have to say like, I'm the last guy you want in the world to help set up your conference room, because I'm not going to be able to set up the ceiling for noise reduction. I'm not going to be able to do the microphone placement. I'm not going to be able to make sure the cameras look right. I suck at all those things. Uh, mounting televisions, not my strong suit, know, and there's so many nuances to it. And I think that that's a huge, uh, problem that that problem challenge that people have is that these things are not. Uh, aligned like what I do. I knew my job is much more like kind of esoteric. You don't really see what we do only a very small sliver, which like a server closet or something like that. So, but, um, yeah, I mean, that's usually how did you get into AV, the audio visual AV business and like, so, you know,
Jason Cole:
Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
How long you guys been in business? This is my favorite part of the conversation, always like the journey of getting here.
Jason Cole:
Yep. So 2002, the business started. But I really, think I actually got into the AV business in, I was probably a sophomore in high school.
Georg Dauterman:
wow.
Jason Cole:
And my, I loved audio. was like this kid that like had all these cassette tapes and I would go out and buy vinyl and collect vinyl. And, and, and I think by the time I was a sophomore in high school, my dad and I went to, I was living in Rochester, New York. He took me down to a, a sound factory thing. We bought a bunch of plywood and MDF and the crossovers and the low frequency and the high frequency and brought them all back to my dad's garage. we. built speakers, connected it to an amp, put in the put it, half built the amp, we had all the parts and half built the amp. And I have a sound system, plug my record player in, get my Aerosmith and Pink Floyd vinyl going and that was that. So, you know, I started the business because I like the business.
Georg Dauterman:
You
Jason Cole:
You know, and, and many years ago, you know, staff of 15 and we multiple locations and warehouses and payroll and insurance and all the crap. so long, a long ago, the, the, you know, the AV part of it became less than it really is truly. It's a business. at the same time, because I have AV, I really enjoy that piece. and I do a lot of lighting. I really enjoy lighting. That's a technical thing.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah.
Jason Cole:
that enhances or... impacts people's lives on an every minute, every day basis. And I find music in particular to have the same kind of impact. If you're at a concert, you're at a jazz show, you're a DJ, you're impacted by music. You get impacted by light when you walk outside and you get vitamin D. You walk into a well-lit conference room is entirely different than some dungeon enclosed fluorescent overhead light trying to make blue light. You want out, right?
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah.
Jason Cole:
But if you have good light, makes all the difference, right? So I started a long time ago, but I still really enjoy the content of what I do.
Georg Dauterman:
It's so, it's so interesting. you start thinking of the best restaurants you've ever been to, and they have like this like subtle, great lighting light, lighting scape. mean, that's I already use lighting design. And then there's a great sound and a background that doesn't inhibit conversation, but you really can't hear what's happening at the table next to you. And it's, and it's amazing when it's done well, it's great when it's done poorly. It takes away from the environment. It actually makes it worse than if it was a cafeteria, I think, you know,
Jason Cole:
Design. Yeah, you know this morning my alarm clock went off, which is my iPhone. It was very loud and it sounds terrible. So it's not about producing decibels, it's about the quality of sound that allows for voice articulation even though the music is occurring.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right, right. Where you can understand what's being said or hear it clearly. And it doesn't overwhelm the senses in a way that is like that, you you, go to that concert where it's like super hot and you're just like, man, my not physically hot, like the audio is hot. And you're like, and you're like, man, you go home and that's a bad ringing ears. Then you go to some other shows where it's like, man, I was who did that? Like who set that up? You know,
Jason Cole:
Yeah. Radio city. saw Ray at radio city last week and my God, that cell system is amazing.
Georg Dauterman:
That is really good there. saw a radio head there a couple of years ago. It was amazing. And it didn't have the headache that you get from like Madison Square Garden. Like Madison Square Garden, we use you like that, that. And I sort of get it, like why it's like that, but it's not good. So.
Jason Cole:
Yeah, I've seen him there too. Right. It's just, bah. Yeah. Well, no, look at the guy that owns the different places and you'll learn.
Georg Dauterman:
And that's a great, yeah.
Jason Cole:
I probably shouldn't say that on our podcast. They'll come searching for me with facial recognition, but you know, yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. I'm banned. Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
facial recognition or some kind of like, was like, who's this cool AV guy? I know you're banned from the, the, was that place out in Las Vegas, the sphere, like not allowed in your band for life. But, no, that's great. And they said, that's so interesting. Like, you know, getting to like, you know, it was like, I was sort of, wasn't in the computers when I was younger. And then I, and then once I started getting involved in doing like IT work and computer technology, like it became like, obsession is a strong word, but it's also kind of, it was like a negative connotation. but more like a passion for doing it and just working on it all the time and learning about it and that persistent and consistent learning mindset. I'm sure like think about when in 2002 when you started this, how different the technology is and the work and like what can be achieved. You know, I always think of like when you talk about the conference room, I remember the first time we tried to set up video conferencing in like 2001, 2002.
Jason Cole:
totally different.
Georg Dauterman:
And it was such
Jason Cole:
Polycom units with the big boxes and the have to have ISDN lines. Yeah, you had to have dual ISDN line to get a better connection. Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
I stand lines. Yeah. Yep. I knew any had to like, I remember sitting there trying to make this stuff. She, she did say, was it? What's that? Yeah. It's, like antique stuff. And it, you know, it, it, and like, while it was actually fairly reliable when you got it working, the cost and the time and the effort astronomical, like the only people that had it was like Japanese banks. You know, it was like, that was pretty much it.
Jason Cole:
See, Megan doesn't even know what an ISDN line is. astronomical yeah yeah yeah
Georg Dauterman:
and it was, it was just such a non, common uncommon thing. And people are, so I always knew about how different it is. So, it's so, it's so interesting to change, you know, so it's so funny. Like when, when people, when, when people ask us to do AV rooms and conference rooms, I always say like, it's not something I'm really good at. You know, I was like, I always had to be so clear. This is not something we do. because, I see the difference. when you, when you, when your team do it versus when they do it themselves, it's, it's like, not that you really want to make the convert the kind of, uh, you know, the association with like, craft work, but it's like nicely done and works, you know, and, and it's, it's, and I think always the problem is that people don't understand what goes into making it good. So what are some good things that you find? Actually, I'm jumping ahead here, but what are some of the things you find?
Jason Cole:
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
are like the key, like, Hey, this is the critical component of these like conference room systems.
Jason Cole:
You know. I was, there's a two part answer. One is use case or business flow. So if, if an end user, so, so the thing that I can't handle the, the, the, the, the biggest, you know, wild card in this whole thing is how the end user has their laptop set up. So
Georg Dauterman:
That's a one. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Jason Cole:
So somebody walks into a room, I don't know what to come in with. They could be coming with a Dell or a Mac. could be a, it could be a 10 year old DVI input. I don't know. Right. Who knows? Right. So, and they're like, but I can make a zoom call on my thing. How come your crappy system doesn't work? So if, if I have an end user and along with an IT partner, that will,
Georg Dauterman:
Chromebook. You have no idea. iPad.
Jason Cole:
Allow or encourage the end user to work with an existing system that's in a room and you image a PC or a Mac that's in that room where the drivers are current. Everything is updated. It's an imaged PC or Mac. Everything is current. Now I have, you know, your Teams and Zoom and meets and whatever. It's all there. You invite that computer to the room or to your call or to invite the room is the as an email address on the computer.
Georg Dauterman:
Right, it's an asset resource.
Jason Cole:
Exactly. as long as the person scheduling the meeting can invite that email address, that makes my job a lot easier. Right. Exactly.
Georg Dauterman:
Right, right. They're willing to do this workflow like this, this sort of like very straightforward, a little bit of upfront cost and a little bit of maintenance, but at the end, the outcome is so much easier, stable.
Jason Cole:
It's so much because now you don't have like Joe and Mary coming in with two totally different pieces of hardware trying to figure out how to deal with the video conferencing and the video conferencing equipment may work just fine. And it's commonly the end users. They got it set up for their Bluetooth headphones and not the HD USB out. You know, who knows? Right. So that's workflows. One. Another one is it has very much to do with the size of the room.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. Right.
Jason Cole:
And then I would say, I'm gonna use the word engagement. So if you have a camera that's just like a Logitech makes them, whether they're like those 180 degree or darn near, probably they're wide, and it just kind of like shows the room. And then someone's talking and you can hear them. It echoes, you're not sure, wait, was that, okay, I don't know, right? And they're just kind of talking and share content and look, it works.
Georg Dauterman:
Mm-hmm.
Jason Cole:
That's a different experience in video conferencing world than having the camera really focus on the individual that is speaking, having them be, their expressions be seen and heard, the audio being seen and heard, and having it be a natural conversation. So a video conference call is never going to be the same as being in person. It just, you just can't do it, but you can approach, you know, you can get
Georg Dauterman:
Right? can't. Right?
Jason Cole:
close. So if there's an existing relationship there and some vital details need to be worked out on a closing deal or on a thing, that's where video conferencing can play a role. But without proper framing, proper resolution, the audio in the room makes sense. It's not a big echo chamber that you can hear what the people are saying. Without those pieces, you might as well just have a call.
Georg Dauterman:
It's, that's what we see with other customers as well, because it's always like, they're like, yeah, it works great one to one. It's like, yes, because it's focused and it's one frame, not this room that's supposed to be moving. And yeah, I, I, it's such a big problem. And it, it, and, and unfortunately it feels that the technology hasn't been as caught up as the one to one zoom calls or even this technology here for these podcasts is pretty cool. It's Riverside. It's actually pretty straightforward. But it's not the same as a big room full of eight people interacting than having the other people, eight people on that side interacting. And that's a very different proposition. And I haven't seen actually most people do it really well. I guess we're tricky. So, I, I totally went off, off the rails and that Jason on that question. So I'm going to try to keep us back on track. so, know, you know, people ask us,
Jason Cole:
Sure. Okay.
Georg Dauterman:
you know, what stage should we bring valiant in and what stage we should bring like someone like Cole Veen. And I'm like, before you even think about moving. It's kind of like that planted tree conversation, like the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the next day is today. but what are some of the, know, so when you, but
Jason Cole:
Yeah exactly. Mm-hmm.
Georg Dauterman:
barring that like kind of like, you euphemism, when do people, when should people call you, Jason? When should people get involved?
Jason Cole:
I do a few things as a company. Audio video is one of the technology pieces that I offer. And lighting and lighting control is another technology piece. I offer automated roller shades as another piece. I do some security and some security integrations, or at least a drawing as in designs thereof, as another piece. So, and how much or any...
Georg Dauterman:
Mm-hmm. very cool stuff.
Jason Cole:
of that other than really AVs always outside of a general contractor scope, but how much of that is outside of the general contractor scope and what the landlord may or may not be handling and the type of space, finally, this is probably the most important, the type of space the end user actually wants all impact that question. So if somebody's like, you know, look, the landlord has given us a build out and I told them to put power and data over here and we can't come in and touch the space until after the landlord's out and they hand us the keys. Then we're allowed to bring someone in.
Georg Dauterman:
Right.
Jason Cole:
That's a different answer as to when do I really need to be engaged versus like, Hey, I think we're going to move. I'm trying to do a test fit on my floor space to find out how many people sit in seats. And I need to figure out how many huddle rooms I need for those people in this test fit. I need to figure out my multi-purpose room. And you've got my lighting to the people at the elevator core feel like they're sitting next to the window when their day lighting is bringing them joy. How am I going to light these conference rooms?
Georg Dauterman:
Right?
Jason Cole:
in the huddle rooms to make them look right when they're on a call? Are you considering sound masking or sound isolation from room to room or sound absorption from within the room so you don't have echo? And what architectural features are you dealing with with that? I mean, in the list, I'm just getting started. know, with, you know, yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
no, I've been in meetings with you on this. it's it never is like one of those things that I think that people don't know what they don't know. Until you start and then you lie and then you almost watch them then like, I glaze and get into a level of horror. Because they're like, they're like, no one told me about this. I had no idea about this. Why didn't anyone talk about this? You're like, because it's just sort of like, it's sort of esoteric until you get started.
Jason Cole:
Right. Well, mean, the answer is there's a clear answer to that. Money is the answer to that question. So so what happens is a broker has relationships with landlords and the landlord says, I'll do I'll take your money. Thank you for your lease money. And now I'll do your build up for you. I'm such a good guy. Well. that's called TI money or tenant improvement money. So that money rather obviously gets buried in a lease. So landlords will also, all you gotta do is ask and not everyone asks, say, hey, I want that money because whatever money you're spending on that space, I can A, do a better job and B, I don't want the cracker, give me. I don't want like the same old every day, every day. I want a nice office. So now in that scenario, you need a client who
Georg Dauterman:
Correct.
Jason Cole:
knows what they're doing, they know what they want, but vitally they want a better office than whatever it is the landlord is just going to show up with. know, hey, your carpets are these three grays, your walls are this white, that white or that white, and your partitions are this company only. Like, you know, if you're cool with that, then you're cool with that. You need something to move in. Okay, fine. But if you want an elevated space and that tends to start around, I would say at least 5,000 square feet, often 7,500 square feet and up.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right. Right.
Jason Cole:
Now you have someone that's moved a couple times, they want a better space, and now they need to be considerate of how is it that my technology is going to interact with the people whose butts are in seats, who are the entire reason why we're moving in the first place.
Georg Dauterman:
It's so funny. It's so true. It's such a, and it not only is it just beyond the, mean, it's the staff that works here. And also if you're even remotely of clients coming to the office, it matters. It's like anything else. It matters. It's like, it's like, if you show up and like that, you know, beat up pickup truck and you're like, I don't know if this guy is, is there insurance? How good is he going to be? Like, is, this, is that plumber insured? know, whatever it is. then, but there's, there's, and it wasn't, you can, you can get over the top as I'm
Jason Cole:
Yeah, it matters. Yeah. Yeah, how good's he really gonna be? Yeah, yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
I know both of us have worked in offices over the years or worked on offices over the years where people are like, wow, I can't believe how much money they spent on finishes or like door handles. Like those door handles, like $700 a piece, you're like, I don't get it. But that being said, there are very specific things that change the feel of a space to make it a different experience.
Jason Cole:
yeah. Yeah. and the function.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. you know, one of the things you said, something we talked about over the years, and even for ourselves, like, maybe we should invest in some sound masking from my office here at Valiant, because we have a bunch of really, like, I'm really loud, and no one wants to hear me talk all day. And you know, everyone, everyone's here, we're on phones a lot, we're doing a lot of video calls. And it's one of those things that would make a difference in our space, like having that sort of thing. That's really important. And, you know, one of the one of the things I always find too, and the something you mentioned was like,
Jason Cole:
Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
this call it out, think it's such an important part of moving. They, the company that usually wants this or knows this has moved more than once. It's not the one time they've done it. And what I, and this is, this is like my unscientific observation is that the people that have never moved before or they're taking their first space. We'll put the most junior under qualified person in charge of something that is right. And it's, this is like a million, potentially millions of dollars.
Jason Cole:
Yes. Yeah, you're an office manager. Go manage your new office. Oh yeah, mean a 10,000, 12,000 square foot space including your FF &A and your GC budget is $1.8, $2 million. Yeah, that's just a standard space.
Georg Dauterman:
on New York City lease. Correct. As standard, as in the fancy and that's not in Midtown. That's like, you know, regular sort of edges. And then if you look at the total cost of the lease over time, depending if it's a long-term lease, if it's like a 10-year or 15-year lease, 20-year lease, you know, you're talking tens, it could be tens of millions of dollars by the time you're done. And it could be, and you're giving a very junior person
Jason Cole:
Yeah. Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
this very expensive responsibility. And I never fully understood it. And it's one of the things that I never forgot, but I'm sure I'm sure you deal with it.
Jason Cole:
Yep. And that's, it's one of the, well, how that is a big reason why COO CEO, whatever their job is to operate and sell and handle HR and right so, so here's this person there, they don't know, let's give this job to them, right? But see the other thing that tenants typically don't know and many brokers and certainly not all the good ones know this and work this project, but the many brokers will push the tenant to a landlord.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right.
Jason Cole:
and say the landlord will handle all these decisions for you. They give you a thing and they're doing your project management, they're doing your design. So when you take that tenant money, it doesn't mean that you're taking the project management of it.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah.
Jason Cole:
Along with that tenant money, you're hiring a construction manager, which there's called an owner's rep, which is a fancy word for construction manager that has your best interests at heart. And that construction manager is now going to manage your designer, your FF &E items, including IT and AV, as well as furniture, including your general contractor, including trade coordination. And that's where your project manager, construction manager, owner's representation, whoever that person's title is, this is
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right.
Jason Cole:
what that person does. So it's not like, so what happens in that scenario is a CEO, whoever's writing the check, that person gets a much, they're not dealing with an office manager, they're dealing with a high paid professional that understands this deeply. It's their job is to do it, Right, right.
Georg Dauterman:
who's done it before, not their first rodeo. This is their job. I wouldn't say, I don't know much training you can get in this, but they've been trained to do it by experience. And then the outcome is very different. I'm sure, and I know myself when I work on those kinds of projects with those folks, I find that it's a much smoother outcome. It's easier, like you kind of know, hey, okay, there's, you know, like.
Jason Cole:
Exactly. Yeah. much smoother. yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
don't mess up, they're gonna hold you to what you say, do what you say and say what you do. But it's clear, it's not like this like lunatic, like, well, as a person who's like kind of getting caught on both sides and they're an employee, and they may not have the normal job to do while they're trying to do this and keep it. So it's a really important thing. that's a really good point. I'm ask a question for clarification.
Jason Cole:
Yeah, yeah,
Georg Dauterman:
FF &E.
Jason Cole:
Furniture. Furnishings, fixtures, and equipment.
Georg Dauterman:
Got it. That's great. it's we, I, know. I see it. know. Yeah.
Jason Cole:
Yeah, I use, we all use acronyms all the time. Well, ISDN, there you go, there's one.
Megan Quick:
No, good catch, George. I usually have to catch it, but George, he got it.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah, I I came, you know, I have to think back on ISDN line means it's been so long. It's like, we haven't touched that stuff. I haven't touched it like in 20 years. The network. Yeah. It was supposed to replace phone lines at one point. We ran over copper sort of became like before TCP became IP became common. Um, anyway, that's digress. Um, so, so one other question is really important. think, so where do architects fit in all this? Because I think depending on the size of the build and
Jason Cole:
Internet service digital network something. don't know Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. So there's two different ways an architect can fit into this, and each way depends again on who's building your space. So you have, if you're taking the money rather than giving the landlord the money,
Georg Dauterman:
the even test fits.
Jason Cole:
to build out your space. Now you're responsible for hiring your architect, which is yet another reason why very commonly anything under 20,000 square feet will often fall in the landlord scope. If you know what you're doing, you can take that money and say, oh, I'm going to hire an owner's rep. And again, the soft cost, MEP, do you know what MEP is Megan? MEP is mechanical electrical plumbing. the MEP goes along with your architect.
Megan Quick:
No, please tell me, go on. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Mm-hmm.
Jason Cole:
So the architect does your structural and looks and coordination. The MEP does all the engineering bit. And those two things are always filed together for a build. they're always part of the same construction documents that go out to bid. Right. So the owner's rep can help you find the right architect is the answer to that question. Now, if you are 7,000 square feet and you go to a landlord and you have a broken bit, Oh, this is a pretty space. Great. Okay. Pick it. Now what happens is the landlord has either an in-house or a
Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm.
Jason Cole:
a on the always architect that will very literally give you whatever it is they did the previous week and reconfigure the space to fit in this spot and that's what you get. building standards, right. So regardless of how great you may or may not have a landlord and how much money you think they're willing to spend or not willing to spend, you're going to get a better product if you do it yourself.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Building, building finish. call it, I've heard it called, it was standard.
Jason Cole:
for the same money because the landlord is making money on this whole thing and they have soft costs as well as their hard cost pricing, general contractor, all the things are the same group of people that have done the same thing and they've gotten consistent at it. That doesn't mean that it's terrible or a bad space. It means it's not yours.
Georg Dauterman:
You think you weren't able to customize it the way exactly you wanted it. Very rarely does the owners. Sure. Right. Right, right.
Jason Cole:
Right, or for your company culture, whatever your culture might happen to be. So it's not like these people are like evil or something, it's not that. It's just that their price is a leading factor. I need to get this done as cheaply as I can because every penny I spend is less money I'm keeping.
Georg Dauterman:
Right, it has direct one-to-one correlation to their bottom line.
Jason Cole:
one to one correlation right so if it cost a million dollars versus two million dollars now all of a the landlord just lost a million dollars
Georg Dauterman:
Right. And whereas if you get a million dollars to the owners from your building allowance and you add another 200 yourself to make it exactly what you want, actually you might, everyone might be happier in the long run because you got what you wanted for a small increase versus demanding it and causing a friction point with the building standard and saying you want to change this stuff. It's like, it's like trying to buy like a kit home and then highly customizing it. It's like, there's no purpose in doing that.
Jason Cole:
Exactly. Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
Valedrone house, you know, at that point, that's where I think. Right. True. Um.
Jason Cole:
Yeah. So there you go. thought you thought we were talking about AV and here I'm all kinds of other stuff, right?
Georg Dauterman:
Well, I think this is the part that most people would be interested in because like AV, AV is not interesting, but I think the part, here in New York is that it's such a complex thing to move an office and there's so many variables. know, and here at Valiant, you know, we've done a couple hundred office moves over the years and relocations, both in New York and outside. And it, there's always something comes up. It's never, it's never smooth.
Jason Cole:
Always.
Georg Dauterman:
Like I've never had it where it's like, this is going really easy and there's no problems at all. know, you know, yeah. A hundred percent. There's so many unknowns and, know, and then people get cold feet on cost then, or they, or they, or they didn't understand it. You know, like I always say, our joke here is always that the architect forgets to put in the server room or network closet or that you're like, ha it'd be breath.
Jason Cole:
Well, it's construction. You you open a wall and something happens.
Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm.
Jason Cole:
or the air conditioning for it.
Georg Dauterman:
We're working on a job together on that one where it's like, like, you know, you got to cool that stuff. It's even if it's not, you know, you don't need a bigger conditioner, but it has to be dedicated for that space. that's, yeah, that's where the MEP folks, if you're not working with an outside person, I find the building folks, that's where they really don't help you is the in-house MEP. Right. They don't, you have to demand every part of it you have to have someone be your advocate and teach and teach you how to, how to.
Jason Cole:
Yeah Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was because it cost some money. Mm-hmm.
Georg Dauterman:
I mean, there's so much to that, but you know, it's it's we could almost do a whole episode just on like, hey, these are the thousand pitfalls of office relocation for. We could. it's actually almost a book in and of itself. Like how to move offices in New York City. yeah, it could be a series. It could be serious. I can see that.
Jason Cole:
there's not almost we could, we could.
Megan Quick:
Ha ha ha. A novel.
Jason Cole:
That's a book. Yeah. It would be a dramatic novel. Like all the mistakes we've seen.
Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm. A trap. No, I'm kidding. four part.
Georg Dauterman:
So, so there's a lot of bad stuff, but let's, let's have some good stuff. Like where have you seen it? Like be everything works awesome. Like, man, where you're at the end of it, you're like, man, I, holy smoke. This is exactly what they wanted and how I saw it in my mind. I would love to hear about that.
Jason Cole:
Sure. Mm-hmm. There's been a variety of jobs. There's two ways for me to answer this. So being a company that's a, I'm a fairly small business, right? So I'm not, there's companies that do international work. So Goldman Sachs, every bank you can think of and any multinational.
Georg Dauterman:
Yo, yeah.
Jason Cole:
For example, we do all the maintenance work for Pfizer in Hudson Yards on their roller shades and some of their other lighting technology stuff. We do all the whole nine floors or wherever they are. We only work in New York. That's the only place I got people. We're not doing the other offices around the world. And I don't touch their EV. There's a very dedicated international EV global company that does that.
Georg Dauterman:
that manages that for them, right?
Jason Cole:
Right. So, so in my world of, more of a boutique firm, I specialize in people that, that will have their headquarters here, or maybe it is a, is a global company. I've done this a few times. There's a global company that needs a New York person. You know, I think you've introduced me to a couple of these, right? So they're, they're out of Europe, for example. And when they, when they come here, they don't have a New York presence because they're a European company.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Right.
Jason Cole:
So, so I, so there's some really nice build outs that, where the build that itself is really luscious and beautiful. And I'm more, mostly following the specifications from someone else in that scenario, because I'm following the protocol that they have.
Georg Dauterman:
They do nice work. Right. Especially those, I know exactly what you're doing and I agree with you. Some of those UK companies do some really smart things and they have a high, it's really nicely, really well done and very thoughtful. like, know, they're building it to last for a long period of time and they're not looking for like the, you know, fast, cheap and not good. You know, it's supposed to be like, not to say it's so outrageously expensive, but it's...
Jason Cole:
Yeah, it's some good stuff, yeah. Right. No, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
they're willing to put some funding behind it to make it get the outcome they're looking for. It's very true.
Jason Cole:
Yeah, and so there's also the other side of it is the boutique companies that have a primary office here. They want a nice looking space here. There's all kinds of spaces that we've worked on. I'm sure you, we both worked on the same projects, you know, and Firebird is one I really thought was great. There's all kinds of them. It did, right? There was a few of them that have been, yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, they came up beautiful. It really is a nice, they did a nice job and they put some really thoughtfulness into that office. Great, great customer to work with and they do a beautiful job. And what's interesting too about that is that they were so thoughtful before they moved. Like they gave us like probably over a year heads up that they're moving before they decided where they even...
Jason Cole:
Yeah. Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
before they even had an address.
Megan Quick:
Small businesses listen to that. Yeah.
Jason Cole:
Yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
Well, yeah, think that, and I think too that some of the leadership there had done it before. They've been through this, there was experienced folks and that's a really important thing. So that's great. I'm very proud of that one too. So, you know, if someone hasn't started yet, you know, where should they start? And where do you think, if you had to say like, hey, these are the things you should do to get started.
Jason Cole:
Yeah.
Megan Quick:
Yeah.
Jason Cole:
calling you is a big one. No, really. Like it is, that, cause you gotta know. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yep.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah. We're kind of first and last in some ways. We're the first to get in, we're the last ones to finish because without us, it really is true to some degree, like because we're the packing and getting it ready to go and show.
Jason Cole:
Yeah. the other thing I would suggest is, is, you know, Hey, you want to move? And you're like, well, what do I do? I'm going to, I this guy as a commercial broker. Let's call him and show some spaces and take a look. And that's cool. And that's fun. And now you're in this pattern and you develop these relationships and you're down this path. Right. I would suggest actually talking to a couple of owners reps to see if that would be of interest to you first.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. That's interesting.
Jason Cole:
So, and what I mean by that is, is they, there's certain, I would say, I don't know, 20 % or, you know, there's a certain percentage, less than half for sure. maybe 10 % of brokers that, that openly love to work with project managers. And like, I work closely with a guy broker from a company called Cressa. They're a tenant only representation company. They're international. Right? So if you have a space anywhere, they help you, but they are known and they're great about working with owners representation. because they understand that their focus, their tenant only broker, they understand that their focus is getting the best product for their customer. And they understand the way to do that is to bring in an orders rep or a project manager that's separate from the building.
Georg Dauterman:
Right, the level of separation and accountability, that's different because, yeah.
Jason Cole:
Yeah, so like just going to any broker won't get you the end result. It doesn't mean you can't circuitously find your way, but I would suggest interviewing owner's representations. Call you, call me. I can point you in the right direction. Both of us have been doing this a very long time. I've seen the good, the bad, and the very ugly.
Georg Dauterman:
Yeah, you know, good referrals for people. Yes, that's true. Yeah, we've seen it. And, and, and, and that's the thing, like lean on the people you, that you work with already. Then no, because, know, I can say that I, I, know so few people who have actually done this. Like if you're not working IT or in this relocation facilities, sort of this field. It just sort of people assume it's one of those works like moving a house and it's such a vastly different thing. It's not even in the same, I would say realm.
Jason Cole:
Well, I do residential as well and there's some of those places are getting very complicated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Out of the ground, out of the ground houses starting at 15 million.
Georg Dauterman:
That's different. Those are the places you're working at Jason. Maybe a little different than moving your house into burbs. So very true, very true. It's just nuts. In and of itself. know. out in Hampton, I assume. that where that is? Westchester.
Jason Cole:
Maybe Hamptons, Jersey Shore, Chappaqua, Bedford, you know, all those up there. It's gorgeous properties, right? Yeah. And then even in Manhattan, you know, you're working on this place. That's a guy bought the place for 28 million. It's seven. It's a seven floor townhouse in, in Chelsea. And it used to be four units. They're got renovating the whole thing, putting in a new elevator and then making you a single family home.
Georg Dauterman:
They're right, yeah, that's true. All right. Yes, that's amazing. But I'm sure when it's gonna be done, it's gonna be like incredible, like mind boggling. That's very cool. That's very cool.
Jason Cole:
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's gorgeous. Yeah.
Megan Quick:
Like I'm ready to see it on architectural digest, honestly. I'm ready for that house tour.
Jason Cole:
I, yeah, no, they're not going to be, these folks don't advertise anywhere. It's NDA up to us and yeah.
Megan Quick:
They're going to be quiet. Yep.
Georg Dauterman:
You would, yeah, no one knows. That, that, that, that's the classic, was they say, rich people shout, wealth whispers sort of things. Money, money shouts, wealth whispers. That's what it is. That's what it is. So that's great. so, I know it's been an entry to the time and time. could talk for another three hours, but I'm to try to keep it tight. what are three questions?
Megan Quick:
Hmm.
Jason Cole:
Yes. Yes. Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
Megan Quick:
Mm.
Jason Cole:
sure.
Georg Dauterman:
you should ask someone when providing AV services. you should, if you were like a civilian out there, what would you ask? What are the three things that you should ask?
Jason Cole:
Yeah. I would actually flip that around and have the person listen to what the suggestions that these people might have. Right. So if you're asking the questions, that means you probably know something about what you want already.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. I agree.
Jason Cole:
But I would just listen, be like, hey, know your user requirements. I'm going to have eight people in this room. It's a big room. It's a small room. got tall ceilings. I got hard surfaces. I need 25 people in this room. need whatever. Know your user requirements. So what's your business case? So after that, what do you suggest? And then you can take.
Georg Dauterman:
That's right.
Jason Cole:
the incoming feedback to then discover who works with you the best and who you like. You you have to build that relationship. You have to kind of work with these people.
Georg Dauterman:
Right, yeah, that, make sure that it feels good. I think this is important. Anything else?
Jason Cole:
Yeah, exactly. But I would say more than like, oh, ask these three things. You can be like, oh, what's the quality of your camera? what's the, you know, sure.
Georg Dauterman:
Who cares? Yeah, it's actually so true. like, it's like, it's it's like, like, it's
Jason Cole:
Yeah, the Wi-Fi, I guarantee you the Wi-Fi is faster than your machine.
Megan Quick:
Yeah
Georg Dauterman:
Correct. And faster than, yeah. also like, you know, people are like, well, I don't want to do wiring. You're like, well, you sort of have to. And it's sort of like, let me tell you why. And there's so much of that I find is that what people, don't know what questions to even ask, even with AI to help them ask questions, you know? And sometimes it's better to be like, let me tell you what, don't tell me what you wanted.
Jason Cole:
Yeah, yeah.
Georg Dauterman:
Don't tell me what, tell me what you wanna do or what you wanna achieve and then we'll just start back work backwards from the end result. I find that's where I find the best results in this specific thing.
Jason Cole:
Yep, yeah, exactly. 100%. Yeah, what is your use case scenario? What is your business use? How are you getting money? Where's your ROI? And now let's fill in the products to make that happen.
Megan Quick:
Hmm.
Georg Dauterman:
I think that's a great way of putting it, Jason. just say like, right, tell me your business use case here. Because if someone goes, man, we're in the office once a month and it's going three people in a room. You're like, I'm not going to build out this like space spaceship command center for you. It doesn't make any sense. But if you're going to, if you, if a critical component of your business is, is like a town hall meeting where it's like, it's like you're addressing, you know, 35, 40 people.
Megan Quick:
Mm-hmm.
Georg Dauterman:
and like a stadium seating scenario, something like that, you're like, okay, that's a very different thing you don't tell the investors or something, who knows? That's gonna matter. So I think it's really important. All right, I'm gonna wrap it up. One last question. So if you had one piece of hard-won advice besides, I think I know the answer, it might be owner's rep, but hard-won advice for office moves, what's the one thing you'd be like, all right, if people listen to this once, what's the one thing they should know?
Jason Cole:
Yeah. Sure. Do not put your office manager in charge of your move.
Georg Dauterman:
Amen. I'm going to actually echo that one. That is probably, and I love office managers, they're usually our best advocates for Valiant.
Jason Cole:
Yeah, but they don't understand the culture and the business case. No, and that's what they do. And it's also not even dealing with, like you said, the investors or their channel partners or their distributors or their clients. They're not dealing with those people. They're dealing with the people that walk in the front door.
Georg Dauterman:
They don't live in this. They don't live every day. They have very unique set of responsibilities and it's not moving offices. 100%. Right. Right. Right.
Jason Cole:
So it's like, don't know what the use case scenario is. What kind of office do you really want? That person can't answer the question because they're not answering globally.
Georg Dauterman:
Right. They don't, they're really, it's so true. a, you almost want like either like a COO or chief of staff who is definitely directing, an owner's rep or outside project manager who could, yeah. So I find that when we have, we're working with a COO or a staff, a high level staff person who has some, decision authority as well as influence, the way it can be like, you know, as a CEO has some kind of like,
Jason Cole:
Absolutely. Operations is definitely a good spot.
Georg Dauterman:
We want to build this thing on the moon and people were like, okay, we can't do that. It's like, we hear you. Yeah, that's your Elon. That's the IPO on that. That's the whole thing of itself. awesome. Anyway, mean, Jason, this has been a super good conversation and I feel like we should collaborate on our office relocation New York City book. I don't think it's been written yet. I think it could be an amazing thing because
Jason Cole:
Well, unless you're Elon. Elon thinks he can. Yeah. Yes.
Georg Dauterman:
I feel like there's a thousand plus nuanced problems of just like, even this, fact that she had to hardwired electrical into the furniture. Who knew that? That's one of those things that no one knows until you find out the hard way that you gotta do that. So stuff like that. Awesome. All right. I think Megan, think wrap it up.
Jason Cole:
Yeah? Yeah?
Megan Quick:
Yeah, no, Jason, again, this was such an interesting topic. you've again, we had our office moves part one and listening to y'all talk. I'm like, this fits so perfectly. And like, where we left the conversation and like, you really filled a lot of gaps. So thank you so much for your offering your time and your expertise. Jason, if people want to find you, where can they find you? Yeah, if you want to plug some stuff.
Jason Cole:
for sure. I don't have stuff. have, I don't. I don't have instas or chats or any of it. I do have a website that needs updating, it's ColeAV.com. And you can always email me. I'm Jason at ColeAV.com. Or you can just call George. He knows how to get a hold of me. Yeah.
Megan Quick:
Yeah
Georg Dauterman:
Hahaha.
Megan Quick:
Great.
Georg Dauterman:
call me up, I'll make the introduction. And if you need to help, seriously, I gladly made the introduction. And, uh, as I said, we've done a number of jobs that have come out amazing. Um, and, the best compliment I give to Jason is, um, the work doesn't come back on you, which is like, once it's done, it's done right the first time. And it's never like, there's like, Hey, by the way, it's always like, man, that was awesome. Thank you for making that great introduction. So.
Megan Quick:
No, like truly.
Jason Cole:
All good. Great.
Megan Quick:
That's the best endorsement. Yeah, I've been working here six years. can echo that, absolutely. Thank you so much, Jason, and thank all of you for joining us again in the Creative Stack. I can't wait for our four-hour series where we do deep dives into more office move, horror stories. I'm kidding, but maybe not. If the people want it, they want it. All right, well, thank you again, Jason, and...
Georg Dauterman:
It really is. Yep. 100%.
Jason Cole:
All Metalhead.
Georg Dauterman:
That sounds good. Maybe not.
Jason Cole:
My pleasure.
Megan Quick:
We'll see you all next time on the Creative Stock. Thank you all so much.
Georg Dauterman:
Thanks everyone. Bye everyone.
Jason Cole:
Yeah, great. Take care.